Talk:Adrian Boult · Paulipedia

Birmingham City Police band

There is a claim in Charles Rafter that says that Boult conducted the Birmingham City Police band; this is not too fanciful, as his predecessor Appleby Matthews certainly did, and the source adds that "members of the police band were controversially used to supplement the Orchestra's ranks in its early days". Can anyone help with a citation for Boult doing so, please? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:28, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I can't find anything on this in Michael Kennedy's biography of Boult (1987) or in Sir Adrian's memoirs (1973). Sounds wholly plausible, and I'll rummage a bit more and report back here. Tim riley (talk) 16:59, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Nothing in either of the other books about Boult on my shelves (Jerrold Northrop Moore's Music and Friends: Letters to Adrian Boult (1979) and Nigel Simeone and Simon Mundy's Sir Adrian Boult: Companion of Honour (1980)), but courtesy of my local library, from the archives of The Birmingham Post:

Appleby Matthews, who worked tirelessly to promote musical activity in Birmingham (he even played the piano at tea-times in the restaurant at Lewis's department store in Corporation Street), was very much involved in the creation of this orchestra, and also enlisted the unlikely musical co-operation of the City of Birmingham Police Band. He in fact rehearsed the City of Birmingham Orchestra for the very first time at 9.30am on Saturday, September 4, 1920 – in the Band Room at Steelhouse Lane Police Station. Matthews, the first regular conductor of the CBO, would regularly call upon members of the Police Band to stiffen the ranks of the orchestra when extra scoring demanded, something which often ruffled the orchestral players, who would rather have seen properly-trained musicians making up the numbers. Adrian Boult took over as principal conductor, bringing the orchestra to a huge level of expertise, and not least in contemporary music. He was one of the earliest champions of Mahler in this country, and the CBO played its part. (Ref: Morley, Christopher. "A glorious 90 years: As the CBSO marks its 90th birthday, Christopher Morley celebrates its past, present and future", The Birmingham Post, 4 November 2010, p. 4)

To my eye that suggests (but only suggests) that by Boult's time the connection with the Police Band was in the past, but I'll rummage further on my next trip to the British Library, probably later this week. – Tim riley (talk) 18:00, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you - used at City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra for now. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:57, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Boult definitely conducted the Birmingham City Police Band on 5 November 1925, in the Central Hall (originally the concert was planned for the Town Hall but the ceiling was in unsafe condition). The concert was advertised in the Birmingham Daily Gazette (4 Nov) which also published a review (6 Nov). Boult shared the programme with the Band's regular conductor, Richard Wassell. According to the review, ACB conducted the overtures to Wagner's Die Meistersinger and Weber's Oberon, and 'a sparkling Folk-Song Suite: a march, an intermezzo, and another march, all by Michael Mullinar.' An advertisement appeared in the same paper (6 Oct 1928) for a concert at the West End Picture House on 7 November 1928 in which Boult and Walton O'Donnell shared conducting a concert with the Police Band (no programme details are given). According to the same paper's review (8 Oct 1928), Boult conducted the Oberon and Meistersinger overtures (as he had in 1925). A few days later, on 14 October, the Police Band gave another concert at the West End Picture House conducted by: 'Gustav Holst (who will conduct his own works) [and] Adrian C. Boult'. A review in the Daily Gazette (15 Oct 1928) notes only that Boult conducted two overtures, while Holst conducted both his Suites for Band. Nigel Simeone (talk) 12:54, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the detailed reply, which I have only just seen. Some of this should be added to this article—but how much? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:52, 28 December 2025 (UTC)

More...

...but still not conclusive. The British Library obliged with Crescendo! – 75 years of the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra by Beresford King-Smith (London, Methuen, 1995, ISBN 0413697401) and an anonymous booklet from 1947 published by the orchestra, City of Birmingham Orchestra, OCLC 558171870. The latter is short and sketchy, but the former covers the matter of the Police Band:

Appleby Matthews was the permanent conductor of the Police Band before he took over as founder-conductor of the CBO, as it was called at the time. (p. 26)
It is unclear when he gave up the conductorship of the Band, but his successor was Richard Wassell who was in charge during some, unspecified, period while Boult was with the CBO. (p. 45)
There is no mention that I could see of any increase in the complement of the CBO under Boult, which leaves open the question of whether the orchestra needed reinforcements for large-scale works in his time and if so where they came from if not from the Police Band. (Chapters 7–8, covering the Boult years, pp. 36–51)
The Police Band gave concerts over several years to raise money to subsidise the CBO during Boult's time with the orchestra. (p. 62)
The whole Band played alongside the orchestra for at least one concert under Boult's successor Heward for "a roof-raising 1812 Overture" in 1936. (also p. 62)
I was surprised to see from King-Smith that the matter of the deputies from the Police Band was twice raised in the House of Commons (December 1920 and January 1921) though I can't find either mention in the not very user-friendly online Hansard archives.

But the long and short of it is that I have found no firm evidence that Boult ever conducted the Band or had members of it as extras in his CBO. Tim riley (talk) 13:28, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Kennedy's 1987 biography explicitly states on page 107 that Boult did conduct the Birmingham Police Band, in 1925-1926 at least: "He had found time in this season to found a magazine, the Midland Musician, with Sydney Grew and to conduct the city police band" - https://www.google.co.uk/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22conduct+the+city+police+band%22. JimmyGuano (talk) 07:44, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Modern Symphony Orchestra

Why is it unimportant to mention that Adrian Boult was the president of the Modern Symphony Orchestra for two decades and conducted it several times? The Modern SO is a notable English orchestra which performed several world and English premieres. So why is that irrelevant for the article? Best, Tobias @Tim riley:

This obscure position is not mentioned in the 342-page Kennedy biography of Boult, nor in Grove, nor in the ODNB, and in my view has no place in an encyclopedia article that tries to summarise Sir Adrian's life and career into 5,000 or so words. We must stick to the essentials. Your new article on the orchestra looks very worthwhile, and I'll look in and Wikify punctuation etc when I have time. Tim riley talk 14:56, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Tim here. An honorary position with an amateur symphony orchestra is not really something that deserves mentioning in a summary of his life and career, especially if it doesn't even get mentioned in much more detailed accounts about him. Put another way, he is important to the orchestra but not vice versa. Bencherlite ^Talk 15:05, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Blowing Trumpets

Can I propose that in 'Bibliography' the word (autobiography) be inserted after My Own Trumpet. London: Hamish Hamilton, otherwise some people may think it is a brass manual? Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:54, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

The crashing noise you may have just heard was me falling off my chair laughing. I shall at once do as you suggest. Tim riley talk 21:13, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

D. Mus.

The penultimate paragraph in the 'First conducting work' section contains this statement: He received a Doctorate of Music in 1921.[8][n 1]

Refs

[8] Osborne, Charles. "Boult, Sir Adrian (Cedric)" Archived 15 August 2016 at the Wayback Machine. Oxford Dictionary of National Biography archive material, accessed 1 March 2010 (subscription required) (Article predating the Kennedy ODNB entry, available in the ODNB's online archive) [NB Both . The Wayback Machine only has one blue link for this capture (out of 13), in 2016, but something flashes up and disappears, leaving an empty white screen. Anyone else having better luck? I'm running FF 141.0 on Win 10.]
[n 1] Boult later took an honours degree in music in 1914

Now, this sounds like a somewhat dodgy ref plus an unsubstantiated note. Furthermore, the 'Early life' section says that Boult graduated in 1912, with a basic "pass" degree", with the same weird refs, [8][n 1], as above. Did Boult really take an honours degree in music in 1914, as claimed? How?

Three further randomly-chosen websites also say he got his D.Mus in 1914, and even Who's Who in the Twentieth Century, "Boult, Sir Adrian Cedric" claims: "Born in Chester and educated at Westminster School, Oxford, and Leipzig, Boult obtained his DMus degree in 1914 and joined the Covent Garden music staff." And so, apparently, does his autobiography, "My Own Trumpet", specifically in December 1914. (Boult, pp. 32-33) But a careful reading of p. 32 shows that Boult says that although he was allowed to take the papers, he couldn't take the degree until 5 years after becoming a Bachelor (B. Mus. Oxon). So, when did he actually receive his doctorate?

Well, Michael Kennedy says that aged 30, during a stint of conducting The Firebird for Diaghilev at the Empire Theatre, Leicester Square, "Boult was able to take the Doctor of Music degree for which he had passed the examination in 1914." Kennedy dates this after 17 December 1919, quoting Ernest Newman, writing in the Manchester Guardian on that date, describing the Diaghilev Firebird revival as "a triumph" for Boult. (Kennedy 1987, pp. 69-70).

So, I suggest that Boult in fact received his D.Mus. in late December 1919, unless anyone cares to find out exactly when the run of Firebird ended. HNY to all, :> MinorProphet (talk) 15:24, 2 January 2026 (UTC)

It seems that the performances of the Ballets Russes ran from 29 September to 20 December 1919 (Remi Labrusse: Matisse's second visit to London and his collaboration with the 'Ballets Russes' p. 1, col. 2), so Boult would have been free to visit the city of dreaming spires and pick up the certificate. Would there have been any sort of ceremony, or would he have just knocked on the professor's door?
"Ah, it's not-quite-yet Dr. Boult. Come in, come in. Still up to your stick-waving activities, I see. Most satisfactory, young man. Glass of sherry? I suppose you've come for this." <waves longed-for piece of vellum> etc. MinorProphet (talk) 13:12, 4 January 2026 (UTC)

So, (my inexhaustible curiosity having been aroused), I ran this phrase, "Boult later took an honours degree in music in 1914" through WikiBlame, and it came up with this: [Please hold, trying to connect you] which resolved to this: [All lines to Bristol are engaged, please try later.] . Tsk, this (unbelievably) dates from 20 April 2010, very nearly fifteen years ago. To save you the effort, this article was begun on 16 April 2010, four (4) days earlier. However did it get a gold star? WikiShame, more like. Dr. Boult, please rotate once more in your grave. I apologize to your ghost for the disservice that this encyclopedia has rendered you. MinorProphet (talk) 06:19, 5 January 2026 (UTC)

Well, you've done a lot of research on this. Why not use the reliable sources you have to hand to make an edit (possibly with a footnote). Clearly it is something where confusion has crept in in the past. And, yes, even feature articles sometimes need the odd tweak... Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 12:45, 5 January 2026 (UTC)