Name
Discussion started at User talk:GhostOfDanGurney#Honda Indy Toronto―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 16:01, 4 September 2025 (UTC)
@Assadzadeh why did you change this to "Grand Prix of Markham" when no source uses that name for the race? Electricmemory (talk) 12:31, 4 September 2025 (UTC)
- Referring to the edit history, you'll note that the page was initially created as Grand Prix of Markham by Brycenrichter, but was later moved to Ontario Honda Dealers Indy at Markham by 162 etc., even though there was an active discussion, which should now be followed-up here. I merely moved the page back pending further discussion and consensus. Assadzadeh (talk) 13:40, 4 September 2025 (UTC)
- @162 etc. Following up the previous discussion, you stated "
The very first thing that WP:CRITERIA says is "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject."
". Yes, that is correct. However, it goes on to state "There is often more than one appropriate title for an article. In that case, editors choose the best title by consensus based on the considerations that this page explains." You even started the discussion with "I bring this to your talkpage in order for us to perhaps find some common ground before actually opening an RM.
" So, I would like to understand why you moved the page prior to consensus and did not follow the guidelines of WP:RM. Assadzadeh (talk) 14:39, 4 September 2025 (UTC)- @Assadzadeh, you also brought up some other good points on @GhostOfDanGurney's talkpage. RegalZ8790 (talk) 17:24, 4 September 2025 (UTC)
- In 162's defense, I would not have used the name "Grand Prix of Markham" for this article, as there is no sourcing indicating that this is used as a name at all, nor is it a descriptive "[Series] at [track]" title such as "IndyCar Series at Markham Centre", so I believe they moved the article as a violation of AT policy. "Grand Prix of Toronto" at least had usage as a legitimate name of the Exhibition Place race in 2007. Moving while discussion was happening was not a good move, though, so I agree with the reversion.
- At this point I think it's beter to open an RM sooner than later since I would agree with 162's (assumed) opinion that "Grand Prix of Markham" is inappropriate, and obviously 162 and I disagree on which title we should land on. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 17:39, 4 September 2025 (UTC)
- @162 etc. Following up the previous discussion, you stated "
Requested move 4 September 2025
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. Moved to IndyCar Series at Markham Centre. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jeffrey34555 (talk) 17:40, 20 September 2025 (UTC)
Grand Prix of Markham → ? – "Grand Prix of Markham" is neither a) a descriptive-enough title so as to fit the WP:CRITERIA, b) a name used in sources, nor c) the official name of the event. Two main titles exist as alternatives to move to:
Ontario Honda Dealers Indy at Markham is the official name of the event, used in primary and secondary sources. However, I believe the corporate sponsorship in the name runs afoul of Wikipedia's WP:NOT policy, specifically, WP:PROMO which says that Wikipedia is not ... a vehicle for ... advertising....
IndyCar Series at Markham Centre is a descriptive title, meeting WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISE and being WP:CONSISTENT with similar motorsports articles that follow a [Series] at [Track] format, including IndyCar Series at Texas Motor Speedway, etc. However, unlike other such descriptive titles which usually have secondary sources using a similar naming format in lieu of corporate sponsors to support such a move, the newness of this event (which was announced yesterday, September 3) leads there to be no such sourcing at this time.
I no less support IndyCar Series at Markham Centre as a title which avoids the issues with WP:NOT that come from including corporate sponsors which can change year-by-year (another issue with CONSISTENT for non-descriptive titles) ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 18:12, 4 September 2025 (UTC)
- Support IndyCar Series at Markham Centre. Assadzadeh (talk) 18:57, 4 September 2025 (UTC)
- Move to Ontario Honda Dealers Indy at Markham. Per nom: "Ontario Honda Dealers Indy at Markham is the official name of the event, used in primary and secondary sources." That's it. We can stop right there. The name that is used by reliable sources is the name we use for the article title. See WP:COMMONNAME. 162 etc. (talk) 01:59, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
- Violation of WP:NOTPROMO. Electricmemory (talk) 15:25, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
- It is not. Per WP:NOTPROMO, "Information (...) must be written in an objective and unbiased style." Misrepresenting the COMMONNAME that is used by all reliable sources to exclude a naming rights sponsor, and instead inventing a made-up name, actually violates that policy (and WP:NPOV.) 162 etc. (talk) 16:34, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
- The WP:COMMONNAME section of the WP:AT policy page doesn't give us rights to violate other policies. As an example to highlight my point, Canada convoy protest is an article which does not use its "commonly recognized name" (which would be "Freedom convoy") as that name is a blatant violation of WP:NPOV. This is covered in the WP:POVTITLE section of AT, while WP:NDESC says
[i]n some cases a descriptive phrase (such as Restoration of the Everglades) is best as the title
. COMMONNAME isn't the be all, end all. It's only one section of the whole policy page. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 16:54, 5 September 2025 (UTC)- Look, I get it. We don't like sponsored names. Detroit Olympia certainly sounds more majestic than Little Caesars Arena. Problem is, in that example as well as the one we're discussing, that's what it's called. We use the name that reliable sources use.
- WP:NDESC does suggest, in certain cases, to invent a descriptive title in order to avoid WP:WTW. Note that "sponsorship" or "advertising" is not mentioned anywhere within said guideline. That's because including a commonly-used sponsor name does not violate NPOV. 162 etc. (talk) 16:39, 6 September 2025 (UTC)
- @162 etc. COMMONNAME does not override any other policy, including NOTPROMO. Electricmemory (talk) 18:25, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
- @162 etc. NOTPROMO states that Wikipedia is not to be used as a vehicle for advertising or promotion. Using a promotional race name is a direct violation of this, plain and simple. Electricmemory (talk) 18:30, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
- The WP:COMMONNAME section of the WP:AT policy page doesn't give us rights to violate other policies. As an example to highlight my point, Canada convoy protest is an article which does not use its "commonly recognized name" (which would be "Freedom convoy") as that name is a blatant violation of WP:NPOV. This is covered in the WP:POVTITLE section of AT, while WP:NDESC says
- It is not. Per WP:NOTPROMO, "Information (...) must be written in an objective and unbiased style." Misrepresenting the COMMONNAME that is used by all reliable sources to exclude a naming rights sponsor, and instead inventing a made-up name, actually violates that policy (and WP:NPOV.) 162 etc. (talk) 16:34, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
- Question Phoenix is returning to the schedule next year. If article titles have to comply with COMMONNAME, then what you rename IndyCar Series at Phoenix Raceway to, since it doesn't have a title sponsor yet? Assadzadeh (talk) 17:04, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
- @Assadzadeh Article titles do not have to comply with COMMONNAME, and especially not ones which violate WP:NOTPROMO. That article does not need to be renamed. Electricmemory (talk) 18:28, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry if I wasn't clear. I wasn't implying that IndyCar Series at Phoenix Raceway needs to be renamed. I was just trying to understand @162 etc. reasoning in that if it had to be renamed, what would he rename it to, since it doesn't have a title sponsor yet? Assadzadeh (talk) 18:58, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
- IndyCar Series at Phoenix Raceway's title, as with any other subject on Wikipedia, should be the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources). Further discussion about that article's title should be on the talk page in question, not this one. 162 etc. (talk) 16:43, 6 September 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry if I wasn't clear. I wasn't implying that IndyCar Series at Phoenix Raceway needs to be renamed. I was just trying to understand @162 etc. reasoning in that if it had to be renamed, what would he rename it to, since it doesn't have a title sponsor yet? Assadzadeh (talk) 18:58, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
- @Assadzadeh Article titles do not have to comply with COMMONNAME, and especially not ones which violate WP:NOTPROMO. That article does not need to be renamed. Electricmemory (talk) 18:28, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
- Violation of WP:NOTPROMO. Electricmemory (talk) 15:25, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
- Support IndyCar Series at Markham Centre, per nom. RegalZ8790 (talk) 02:58, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
- Support IndyCar Series at Markham Centre. Electricmemory (talk) 15:25, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
- We don't need a source to back up this name, as it's a simple descriptor of the event. Electricmemory (talk) 15:26, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
- Alternative use Markham Indy , concise and precise -- "indy" is the type of race which is occurring in Markham -- 65.93.183.181 (talk) 23:19, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
- Support IndyCar Series at Markham Centre but would suggest "Indy at Markham" as a WP:CONCISE alternative derived from the official title. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 23:53, 7 September 2025 (UTC)
- Support IndyCar Series at Markham Centre
- just like how I did for Phoenix and Iowa, do something like this Brycenrichter (talk) 15:16, 16 September 2025 (UTC)