Talk:Lane Bryant shooting

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus to move. Editors in support are more numerous and have the stronger argument; WP:MURDERS is an essay, and the current title is not compliant with it anyway, while WP:BLPCRIME carries less weight as the perpetrator is not named.

There is no consensus on whether the year should be added; editors may open a new RM proposing this at any time. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 04:53, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Lane Bryant shooting → Lane Bryant murders – Why ...Fits better in a historical perspective.aButteyFelicity (talk) 21:14, 8 May 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 03:27, 16 May 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 05:05, 23 May 2026 (UTC)

It follows </nowiki>Wikipedia:COMMONNAME it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the five criteria listed above. Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize. It is frequently called murders in the news. More specifically the Chicago News where it took place. It is also called “Massacre” but it is a controversial term. Murders is more appropriate (from a historical perspective) since its a name more natural and used often when describing it. Shooting is used as well but Murders is the more proper term.

Naturalness – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such a title usually conveys what the subject is actually called in English. It conveys the purpose showing there were murders there. Since it is used in the media Lane Byrant Murders is more appropriate.

Precision – The title unambiguously identifies the article's subject and distinguishes it from other subjects. It identifies the place and cause= Location - Lane Byrant. Cause- Murders

Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. It fits into the pattern of other mass murders/Shootings The Hollywood Video Murders, The Wonderland Murders, the Keddie Murders, Lava Lake Murders, the Saint Valentine’s Day Murders, The Superbike Motorsports Murders, The Burger Chef Murders, The Austin Yogurt Shop Murders, and The Prom Night Murders. All ranging in 3-5 victims and follow the common pattern of being unsolved or solved mass murders, like Lane Byrant. (Except Hollywood Video Murders, The Austin Yogurt shop murders, and The Superbike Motorsports Murders- the last two mentioned at one point were both unsolved.

Wikipedia:Common Sense Wikipedia has many policies or what many consider "rules". Instead of following every rule, it is acceptable to use common sense as you go about editing. Being too wrapped up in rules can cause a loss of perspective, so there are times when it is better to ignore a rule. Even if a contribution "violates" the precise wording of a rule, it might still be a good contribution. Similarly, just because something is not forbidden in a written document, or is even explicitly permitted, doesn't mean it's a good idea in the given situation. (In case someone’s rude. Got my head bit off multiple times.}} ButteyFelicity (talk) 21:14, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Oppose, per WP:NCWWW. There is no reason "murders" would be more appropriate. PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:22, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

It is Wikipedia:COMMONNAME used frequently by the chicago news stations and most recognized from area it took place.

examples: https://abc7chicago.com/post/lane-bryant-shooting-tinley-park-murders-5-women-remain-unsolved-18-years-later/18527422/

https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/lane-bryant-murders-tinley-park-18-years-later

https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/video/tinley-park-lane-bryant-murders-remain-unsolved-18-years-later/

It fits in with the above mass murders and unsolved ones above. Your point also does this: Where: Lane Byrant What: Murders of 5 woman in the cities largest unsolved mass murder. It is different from a mass shooting. A Mass shooting is where someone indiscriminately shoots four or more people resulting from gun violence. This is similar to the Superbike Motorsports Murders and Austin Yogurt Shop Murders. A Robbery gone wrong leading to unsolved mass murder. Tinley park is One of a Chicago’s safest cities, making quite a shock for the murders. It is not sensationalizing and providing a neutral message. ButteyFelicity (talk) 00:07, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

here's 3 articles calling it Lane Bryant shootings. It is equally the common name. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:37, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

Still not convinced. Here’s more on the anniversaries.

https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/14-years-later-lane-bryant-murders-in-tinley-park-remain-unsolved/

https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/lane-bryant-murders-case-remains-open-14-years-after-killings-we-owe-it-to-their-families

https://wgntv.com/news/cover-story/lane-bryant-murders-5-years-later/

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/2013/01/28/the-lane-bryant-murders-open-case/

https://wgntv.com/news/still-no-arrests-on-8th-anniversary-of-lane-bryant-massacre/

https://www.fox32chicago.com/video/1174188

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2017/2/1/18344022/investigation-continues-on-9th-anniversary-of-lane-bryant-murders

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2018/02/01/photos-lane-bryant-murders/

https://abc7chicago.com/post/tinley-park-lane-bryant-murders-unsolved-crime-il/12763590/

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/2013/01/28/the-lane-bryant-murders-open-case/

It is more called murders than shooting. On the anniversaries on the shooting its called murders. Shares WP:COMMONNAME ButteyFelicity (talk) 02:58, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22lane+bryant+shootings%22 Etc. Most, or equal, seem to use "shooting/shootings". Also, the capitalization on your title is wrong, if we were going to move it it would be "Lane Bryant murders", because Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization), "Do not capitalize the second or subsequent words in an article title, unless the title is a proper name." PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:14, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

• Support Lane Bryant murders, which they clearly were and which they are commonly referred to as. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:28, 13 May 2026 (UTC)

Support Stormm001 (talk) 04:25, 15 May 2026 (UTC)

Just a vote. Raskuly 🐰 20:21, 29 May 2026 (UTC)

I think thats what they were doing ButteyFelicity (talk) 01:00, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

The point was they've been guided towards WP:RMCOMMENT before and appear to not have read it. Raskuly 🐰 01:33, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

• Including the year would probably be desirable, per WP:NCWWW. Also, if we use "murders", it should be lowercase. I see that the template was later changed to use lowercase, so I adjusted the visible form to match it. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:44, 16 May 2026 (UTC)

  As it is a judgement call, people should decide. This is after all the largest unsolved mass shooting in American history. Years are supposed to be for unknown or smaller ones to help identify. This one is referred to as a massacre and The second unsolved mass shooting in Illinois since the Browns Chicken Massacre. I support years when it’s necessary, but for here it’s not. Newspapers want years. ButteyFelicity (talk) 14:35, 23 May 2026 (UTC)

  Can you cite a reliable source that says this is the largest unsolved mass shooting in American history? The Wikipedia article currently does not say that, and the case does not seem especially well known. Five deaths is not an especially high body count for a mass shooting. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:56, 23 May 2026 (UTC)

  https://youtube.com/watch?v=LzQqL9zLNtc&si=QK_BQI71XXGA9bHZ

  https://www.newsnationnow.com/crime/lane-bryant-killings-remain-unsolved-18-years-later/ there’s probably more, but it is considered the largest unsolved mass shooting. Just because wikipedia doesn’t say doesnt mean it is. I added it but got deleted. Mind you, this was 2008, before mass shootings got high casualties like Sandy Hook and Las Vegas. Before then, 5 bodies was a lot. ButteyFelicity (talk) 18:14, 23 May 2026 (UTC)

  Its before people got desensitized to lower casualty counts sadly. ButteyFelicity (talk) 18:14, 23 May 2026 (UTC)

  I added a citation to your NewsNation source. I looked at your previous edits and didn't find a mention of this in them. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:58, 23 May 2026 (UTC)

  Huh? That’s odd. I swear I added it a while back. ButteyFelicity (talk) 19:43, 23 May 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:MURDER and WP:MURDEROF. The word murder should not appear in the title of an article if there has not been a conviction for murder for WP:BLPCRIME reasons. While the law enforcement might say they are investigating this killing as a murder, that is only their opinion as proving murder beyond reasonable doubt requires a conviction. Wikipedia articles should generally have neutral titles. Labelling an an event as "murder" means Wikipedia is not remaining neutral in this case. The existing title is adequate and sufficiently imprecise to cover both those killed as well as those injured. The word "killings" which is also used in some sources is also acceptable. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:30, 27 May 2026 (UTC)

  But also your forgetting WP:COMMONNAME It is more referred to Murders as well as massacre than killings. Your also forgetting this: When an article is about an event during which a death occurred, the article should be named based upon the single commonly recognized name of the event. As well as: However, if the single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used for the topic by a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources (the "common name" policy standard) is "murder", that has priority above all other considerations, and the article should be titled "Murder of [victim]". While your points are true, it is more commonly referred to as Murders and Massacre than Killings. “Killings” isn’t appropriate since it is usually used for notable homicides that have been found to not be murder. This has been referred to as a murder by multiple sources. Multiple if not all unsolved mass murders also have “Murders” in them. This argument is best used in single homicides. Also here’s this: However, non-neutral but common names (see preceding subsection) may be used within a descriptive title. This is all rules per multiple WP sources you listed. Referring to this as a killing is highly inappropriate. : Where reliable sources establish that a murder occurred and "murder" is the common name, an article may be titled "Murder of [Victim]" even if no suspect is identified or prosecuted. ButteyFelicity (talk) 00:54, 27 May 2026 (UTC)

  I am very well aware that WP:COMMONNAME isn't the only criterion for an article title, there are at least five different criteria, and the title of an article needs to be a balance of all of them. While the word "murders" might frequently be used in the title of news reports to name this event, it is not the only wording, and other terms are used, too. At this stage, the police have an unsolved murder investigation on their hands, which has not been proven to be murder because nobody has been charged with these killings. Wikipedia editors shouldn't call an event a "murder" unless that has been proven to be the case, either with a conviction or with the passage of time being so long that the perpetrators are likely dead and no charges for murder are feasible. Until there is a conviction in this case, I think "killing" is an acceptable neutral term to apply to this type of homicide. Oddly enough, I think the word "massacre" would also be sufficiently neutral to describe what happened, but it is not used in any of the article sources, so is not a commonly recognizable name for this event, whereas both the terms "shooting" and "killings" are used in the sources and are neutral terms, than the unproven term of "murder", when somebody is still out there who might be charged with this crime. WP:BLPCRIME considerations also apply to this article's name. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 01:50, 27 May 2026 (UTC)

  You still forgot about the rules I stated. BLPCRIME can be ignored by them which you are forgetting. Massacre is used second behind Murders, but it is controversial unless people decide its appropriate. It has been proven that all 5 women were murdered. Killing is still not appropriate. Murders is since as unsolved murders and mass murders, they are officially classified as Murders instead of Homicides due to the link of time of how cold it is. Look up the Tupac case since it is a murder similar to this. Lane Byrant Murders is the common name and is used frequently on the anniversaries and as time goes on. Your argument is still sorta invalid as the Blue Ridge Murders, the Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders, The Shelby Bookstore Murders, the huntington prom night murders, and the Burger Chef Murders, all have murders despite being cold. Here’s this: Where reliable sources establish that a murder occurred and "murder" is the common name, an article may be titled "Murder of [Victim]" even if no suspect is identified or prosecuted. It counters BP Crime due to it being a cold case. ButteyFelicity (talk) 02:57, 27 May 2026 (UTC)

  Rules? What rules? Since when has Wikipedia had any hard an fast rules, and what gave you the right to prescribe them? All I see is an argument for changing an article's name, and I think that you are wrong, and I am explaining why I think so. I also think you misunderstand how murders are classified internationally. The UNODC standard for the International Classification of Crime for Statistical Purposes (ICCS) classifies all murders as a subset of homicides. It is not murder or homicide; it is murder is a homicide, with the extra requirement that an intent to kill has to be proven. Since nobody has been arrested and charged in this case, that intent has not been proven. The police are treating this as a case of murder, but that is their point of view. If the perpetrator were arrested tomorrow and charged with murder but managed to argue it was not, what are you going to call this article? This is why WP:BLPCRIME is very much a live issue, not because of what has already happened, but because of what could happen in the future. Where is Wikipedia going to be if lawyers file a claim for breach of constitutional rights because Wikipedia has an article that implies their client is a murderer. Are you prepared to go to jail over this? I am not. Hence I am opposed to including the word murder in the title. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 21:25, 28 May 2026 (UTC)

  Umm……I think Im gonna sit this one out…

  WP:BRIE ButteyFelicity (talk) 21:31, 28 May 2026 (UTC)

  Your overall argument is sound, but I would strike through the "Are you prepared..." question. It's unnecessary and extremely highly unlikely if not impossible to occur. the Stefen 𝕋ower 21:35, 28 May 2026 (UTC)

• Comment is there any consensus regarding unsolved murders and how they should be titled in accordance to WP:MURDERS? I see a lot of unsolved murders with the terminology of "murders" in their title. It certainly isn't universal, but it makes me unsure if there is some consensus I am unaware of regarding it, or if Choosing article titles about violence and deaths is being improperly applied. Raskuly 🐰 21:45, 28 May 2026 (UTC)

  Not to my knowledge. I just follow the WP:COMMONNAME it is given. It doesn’t say anything with unsolved murders at least to my knowledge. Usually with unsolved murders, it is indeed referred to its common name that includes murders in the title. I think the only problem was with the Austin Yogurt Shop Murders, but that was because the suspect wasn’t Identified/DNA was tested.

  It does say it can be called murders if it indeed the most common name asserted with it. ButteyFelicity (talk) 21:56, 28 May 2026 (UTC)

  I:E Burger Chef Murders, Shelby Bookstore Murders, Lava Lake Murders. News reports like ABC and local call it Murders, as well as newspapers, websites and so on. The guys arguments are reasonable, but it doesn’t say anything from what I’ve read on Unsolved. If there could be a consensus on it, It should be called Murders (since it’s what the unsolved murders are called) until an actual arrest is made which then it should be called Killings. Idk, thats my opinion though. ButteyFelicity (talk) 22:01, 28 May 2026 (UTC)

  The article doesn't shy away from calling it murder since there are not WP:BLPCRIME concerns since it remains unsolved and there is no suspect, but unless there is consensus on Wikipedia regarding naming articles using terms such as "murder" or "murders" in the case of unsolved murder(s) with no suspect I'm afraid I'd have to oppose (not my final decision, I'm hoping another editor might know of existing consensus) based on WP:MURDERS, even though I'm personally sympathetic towards the proposed title.

  For instance, there isn't a dispute about there being murders that took place at the Lane Bryant, and if a suspect was found the article could be moved back to the current title without a discussion in order to not violate WP:BLPCRIME. There might be another discussion regarding if it should be "killings" or "shooting" if that happened, but that is besides the point. Raskuly 🐰 22:33, 28 May 2026 (UTC)

  It's important to be aware that WP:MURDERS and WP:MURDEROF are just opinionated essays that do not represent community consensus. They are not Wikipedia policies or guidelines, and there is no presumption that we need to be "in accordance" with them. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:38, 29 May 2026 (UTC)

  This is true, so I suppose WP:COMMONNAME would be the most important determining factor here. I did bring it up at Wikipedia talk:Article titles#"Murder(s)" in titles in regard to unsolved murders because I was confused about the whole situation. Many Category:Unsolved murders articles (not to mention the name of the category itself) use the "murder"/"murders" terminology. Is it clearly the most common name? I can't say it is. I see a lot of usage of the word "murders" and "shooting", and less so "killings". Raskuly 🐰 00:47, 29 May 2026 (UTC)

  In my opinion it's fine to call unsolved murders.. murders. There's a difference between the nature of the crime being in doubt and the crime pretty clearly being that someone got murdered but we don't know who did it. If, in a crime like this one, we somehow, against all odds, end up with someone on trial and admitting to killing them but insisting it wasn't murder, then fine, we can do an emergency change of the article name for WP:BLP reasons, but when we don't even have a suspect I don't see how it could be a BLP issue (which is the obstacle in the first place). Considering that insisting on not calling something like this murder can be rightfully seen as quite disrespectful to the families, I don't think describing an event like this as a "killing" is the best option (which, again, we can do because it doesn't cause BLP issues in this situation). ⹃Maltazarian ^{ᚾparley ∨ {\displaystyle \lor } investigateᛅ} 15:45, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

Support Correspondingly to the now solved 1991 Austin yogurt shop murders and Brown's Chicken massacre, or another cold case similar to Lane Bryant which includes the Las Cruces bowling alley massacre, none of these articles contain shooting in the title, despite all of these attacks involving a firearm only, presumably because of the nature of the attacks.

Furthermore, the shooter conducted a robbery and sexually assaulted the victims, whom he [likely] held hostage. Similar acts also ensued in the aforementioned cases above (e.g, the robbery which took place in the Austin yogurt shop murders (along with the sexual assault in this particular case), the Las Cruces bowling alley massacre, and the Brown's Chicken massacre.

All of these cases are very similar in nature, and I propose the subsequent name change to either, murders or massacre, so this article is consistent with the other similar cases. Citelink (talk) 00:25, 30 May 2026 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE MCE89 (talk) 15:14, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

• Support with year per WP:NCWWW and because while murders and shooting are not clearly the WP:COMMONNAME over each other, "shooting" typically belongs to articles involving non-robbery motivated mass shootings. Raskuly 🐰 06:09, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

Support Iys pretty obvious “Lane Bryant murders” is much more suitable title for this case. Stormm001 (talk) 15:29, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

You already expressed your support, and you should not do it again. See WP:RMCOMMENT. Raskuly 🐰 16:35, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

Redundant support expression struck per Raskuly. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:42, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

• Support and leaning towards including a year because "Lane Bryant murders" on its own does make it sound like Lane Bryant in this situation is referring to a person, and I don't quite think it's notable enough to not have the year included, which after all is the common practice for articles like this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maltazarian (talk • contribs) 15:50, 30 May 2026 (UTC)
• Move to 2008 Lane Bryant shooting. A year should be added per WP:NOYEAR, but not convinced we need to change the descriptor of this. Shooting is accurate.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:45, 8 June 2026 (UTC)