Talk:Folarin Balogun · Paulipedia

Nationality

Born in USA and plays for USA. Sounds American enough to list in description. Nswix (talk) 01:50, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

But never lived there and would likely have been considered 'English' if not for his recent call-up... Giant Snowman 20:25, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

But he also actively and consciously chose the United States. So, having been born there and actively chosen to represent only them, it doesn't really matter where he grew up. Anwegmann (talk) 20:56, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

He was a youth player for England. This is not a standard case. Giant Snowman 20:25, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

Is this the discussion that you mean? This is not remotely close to a consensus, and if we were to draw a conclusion here, it would be that he should be referred to in the lede as an American. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of ambiguous nationality from having lived in a country. There is no standardized example of this elsewhere. It is common and standard practice throughout WP:FOOTY that if a player was born in the same country they represent internationally, the lede follows suit. Claims otherwise fall under WP:OTHERSTUFF. Anwegmann (talk) 22:09, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

No, there is no consensus, but I have never claimed there is - I simply said that the lack of a nationality has been present for many years and is therefore considered WP:STABLE. Giant Snowman 18:12, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

But the article only didn't mention his nationality before he switched to his birth country, the United States. Since he switched to the US, the article has referred to him as an American. Candidyeoman55 (talk) 17:27, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

It was removed over 2 months ago - and please do not edit whilst a discussion is ongoing. Giant Snowman 17:33, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

Why did they remove the nationality then? Not mentioning nationality is OK for foreign-born USMNT athletes like Sergiño Dest. Candidyeoman55 (talk) 18:15, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

Because it is ambiguous. Yes, he was born in USA - but spent entire life in England and played for England at youth level. Until 2023, he was viewed in sources as 'English'. Giant Snowman 18:45, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

It appears, based on recent edits, as well as nearly universal practice across WP:FOOTY, that the lede should not be ambiguous in this case. I was fine with leaving it when it was really only two of us arguing back and forth here. But now that three others, completely separate from me, have made the same edit that I made late last month, and given that their/our arguments are directly in line with standard practice for footballer articles, I believe that it is more than acceptable to add "American" to the lede and that WP:STABLE no longer applies. Indeed, per WP:STABLE, restoring the article to a stable version is not required, nor is it encouraged by any policy or guideline. At what point does a "dispute" simply turn into a single editor arguing for something on their own? Anwegmann (talk) 19:08, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

Consensus is based on strength of argument, not mere numbers - WP:NOTAVOTE. The 'standard practice' you mention is not to mention the nationality in the lede where it is ambiguous - as is the case here, whether you like it or not. Giant Snowman 19:18, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

And his nationality, especially as related to the thing for which he is most notable, is not ambiguous, whether you like it or not. You are the only one in this discussion, and the set of edits (and edit summaries) attached to it, making the argument that it is. Again, at what point does a "dispute" simply turn into a single editor arguing for something on their own? Before this edit, that you used as evidence of stability, two months ago making the lede ambiguous, this edit doing the opposite held for nearly three years, in line with standard practice. When Balogun represented England, his nationality was ambiguous because he represented a nation other than that of his birth. Now that he represents the United States, it is not. Anwegmann (talk) 19:36, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

If there is consensus to add 'American' then I will of course abide by that - but there is not. I was not the one who removed it - do not pretend that I am the only one advocating for it to stay removed. Giant Snowman 20:30, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

The whole article is already in American English, and FB actively plays for the USMNT.

I thought precedent was that a dual national only removes nationality from the lede if either: they represent a foreign-born nation or are born in a non-English speaking nation and immigrate to N.A./Australia some point in their youth. Texascowdude (talk) 15:46, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

No, it's if it's ambiguous. You should not have restored it (pending the outcome of this discussion), and your warning of me was entirely inappropriate. Giant Snowman 17:10, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

But this article has been American since 2023, until it was changed very recently.

Is this discussion supposed to justify why FB shouldn’t be labeled American on the left, or did I get the wrong idea? Texascowdude (talk) 17:40, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

You've barrelled in here without even knowing that the issue at hand is?! Classic. Giant Snowman 17:56, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

I don’t understand why you are mocking me. All I am here in this discussion for is to defend “American” being in the lede. Texascowdude (talk) 18:05, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

He was also a United States youth player at some point. Texascowdude (talk) 15:35, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

So you admit nationality is fluid and ambiguous? Thanks. Giant Snowman 17:10, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

No I don’t at all, I’m just trying to point out the hypocritical error in your argument. Texascowdude (talk) 17:31, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

So you say nationality is set in stone and cannot change then? Giant Snowman 17:56, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Why does nationality need to change in this case?

He was born American, was briefly “Born in the U.S., represents England…”, and is now an American player again.

Your questions seem more focused on attacking the pro reinstatement position by asking rhetorical questions, as opposed to defending your own position. Texascowdude (talk) 18:09, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Because he was of 'English' nationality three years ago. Giant Snowman 18:56, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

The lede was correctly ambiguous prior to May 2023, not "English." After that, it correctly became "American" for nearly three years until it was incorrectly changed back to ambiguous two months ago. Anwegmann (talk) 20:04, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

The lede was correctly ambiguous prior to May 2023, not "English." - false. Giant Snowman 20:30, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

But he was called up so he’s not “English” right?

If place raised was relevant, then FB should be called a “footballer” not “soccer player” correct? Texascowdude (talk) 15:34, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

How was he described pre-2023 call up? 'English' - hence the ambiguity. Giant Snowman 17:10, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

In that case, what about the hundreds to thousands of other footballers who represented a foreign born nation at youth level and their birth nation at birth?

“Pre”-2023 call up, he was an England U21 national.

Before he represented England youth teams at all he would’ve been “American” because he is born in NY.

“Post”-2023 call up, he is a USA national. Texascowdude (talk) 17:37, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Look at e.g. Riyad Mahrez - born in France, and was 'French' until he was called up by Algeria. The lede (correctly) omits his nationality. We have a similar situation here. Giant Snowman 17:56, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

He is not born in Algeria though and is French at birth. FB is born in USA and was not English at birth. Texascowdude (talk) 18:10, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

But the convenient fact you are forgetting is that this player was considered English until 2023! Giant Snowman 18:54, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

The lede was correctly ambiguous prior to May 2023. After that, it correctly became "American" for nearly three years until it was incorrectly changed back to ambiguous two months ago. Anwegmann (talk) 20:03, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

The lede was correctly ambiguous prior to May 2023 - false. Giant Snowman 20:30, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

That incorrect lede with which you created the article in March 2020 was corrected in April 2021 and stood for more than two years. Just because you created the article with an incorrect lede doesn't mean that the lede established him as "English" prior to May 2023. Your incorrect "English" lede stood for one year. The corrected ambiguous lede stood for more than two years. Anwegmann (talk) 20:39, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Wrong again. It was created - whether you think 'incorrectly' or not - with him being described in the lede as 'English' in March 2019 (as that link clearly shows), so he was 'English' in the lede here for 2 years. This just highlights the ambiguity of his nationality, and supports my position. Giant Snowman 20:45, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Wrong again. It only shows that you created the article with an incorrect lede that was correctly changed—a change that held under precedent and that you did not change back. And I am arguing that nationality is and can be fluid, hence his ability to be referred to correctly as ambiguous, given one set of circumstances, and correctly as "American," given a changed set of circumstances. Referring to him as "English" was never correct under any set of circumstances, according to widespread precedent. Anwegmann (talk) 20:50, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Nope - see e.g. Raheem Sterling, similar case. Giant Snowman 20:52, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

So...nationality can be fluid...my point stands...Anwegmann (talk) 21:07, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

You're not making the point you think you're making... Giant Snowman 17:44, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

This is a bad example. Mahrez was born in France and then only represented Algeria, becoming cap-tied to Alergia and never representing France before or after. Balogun was born in the United States, represented both the United States and England at youth level, never becoming cap-tied to either, and now currently represents the United States, to which he is cap-tied. In Mahrez's case, you have a player who was born in one country and currently plays for and is cap-tied to another country. In Balogun's case, you have a player who was born in one country and currently plays for and is cap-tied to that same country. These are dissimilar and don't represent the same situation. The lede in the Mahrez article is indeed correctly ambiguous based on longstanding precedent that if a player was born in one country and either currently or most recently represented/s another, their nationality is ambiguous. But that's not the situation we have in Balogun's case. Anwegmann (talk) 19:50, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

How was he considered by sources prior to 2023? English. Trying to argue his nationality is not ambiguous will not fly. Giant Snowman 20:31, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

It depends on the perspective of the given, source, I suppose. But that doesn't make Mahrez a good example for the discussion here. Anwegmann (talk) 20:54, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

I'd say multiple international representation, without any currently dwarfing the other, means nationality: ambiguous. User:U003F 22:53, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

Bingo! Giant Snowman 17:09, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

But the U.S. dwarfs England, as he represents the men’s team, no? Texascowdude (talk) 17:38, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

...no, that's the whole point. Giant Snowman 17:54, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Error on my side I meant to say England dwarfs the U.S., for the sole sake that FB is NY-born and plays for them now. His growing up in England shouldn’t, in my opinion, have anything to do with the lede not having American in it. Texascowdude (talk) 18:12, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

So his entire life being in England, and playing for England dat youth level, is not a factor? Giant Snowman 18:55, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

I was counting caps, and he's played roughly the same number of games (over various age groups) for each country. I'd say born somewhere, raised somewhere else, represented one country, represented another country causes (to my eye) ambiguity. U003F ^? 20:24, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

That's fair. I see cap-tying as more important than caps, at least in this situation. Anwegmann (talk) 21:02, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Number of caps, that is. Anwegmann (talk) 21:03, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

I see caps with the senior team as more important than caps with junior teams. T v x1 00:20, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

Cap-tying is not an insignificant factor here, though. Balogun can only represent the United States (and has only represented England at youth level). It's not a matter of degrees. Anwegmann (talk) 19:57, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Nobody is doubting that he can now only ever play for the USA. But you are ignoring that he spent his entire life in England and played for England at youth level. Giant Snowman 20:32, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

And you are ignoring, misrepresenting, and misunderstanding longstanding precedent. It's funny how you started this discussion arguing for WP:STABLE. Anwegmann (talk) 20:43, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

No, I am not. The actual longstanding precedent is that we do not include nationality in the opening sentence if it is ambiguous. I - and others - are saying it is ambiguous. Your argument is that it isn't, based on nothing more than 'born in USA, ignore the next 22 years, oh yep he's American!' Giant Snowman 20:47, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

I'm also not ignoring any of that. I'm fully aware of it. I simply recognize that precedent, across thousands of footballer articles, follows place of birth held against national team concerning nationality in the lede. Anwegmann (talk) 20:46, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Not when it is ambiguous like this though! This is a very odd case and you trying to shoe horn him with every other 'normal' player does not work. Giant Snowman 20:48, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

It's not that odd, and every other article (that is reasonably maintained) with a similar situation follows what I am advocating. Anwegmann (talk) 20:51, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

There many examples of other footballers with this exact same issue, sometimes including the same countries, in fact. Anwegmann (talk) 20:53, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

No, that's not true - see e.g. Raheem Sterling. Giant Snowman 20:53, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Raheem Sterling actually goes more to my point. But that lede has also changed a lot, flipping between ambiguous and "English" over and over without the consistency Balogun has not (in either direction). More importantly, though, Sterling's situation is also different than that of Balogun, just like Mahrez.

See Yunus Musah and Julian Green as two examples that are functionally identical to Balogun that immediately come to mind. Anwegmann (talk) 20:57, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Musah slightly different - lived in Italy and didn't move to England until he was 9, but he should lose the 'American' as well. Green ditto, moved to Germany at 2! Giant Snowman 21:02, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

The only measurable aspect of their (and Balogun's) nationality is that they all represent the nation in which they were born. Both are correct as they are now. Anwegmann (talk) 21:06, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

I mean, I have for years now advocated for basing nationality in the lede on national team only, just for simplicity's sake. If there is no national team available, then we can with either place of birth or perceived nationality (like, as you argue, places lived and/or raised). Frankly, I think that would simplify all of this. It would make Sterling undoubtedly correct as is, Musah and Green undoubtedly correct as is, and it make Balogun "American" in the lede. I edit based on the "Born in [X], he plays for the [Y] national team," but I think there is a simpler way. Anwegmann (talk) 21:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

So you'd potentially have had Rhys Norrington-Davies (if he'd never played for Wales) as a 'Saudi Arabian footballer'?! Giant Snowman 17:46, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

This may be naive, but could we reach a consensus to just not mention the nationality in the first sentence and instead mention some of this stuff further down? 🚂ThatTrainGuy1945 ^{Peep peep!} 14:49, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

No, we should mention his nationality. Candidyeoman55 (talk) 15:30, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

TTG, that is what I am trying to do here - in cases where it's ambiguous, we do not include the nationality. That is established precedent. The argument here is whether it's ambiguous or not. Giant Snowman 17:45, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

I would argue that it is ambiguous if we've spent 75 comments over it. A footnote explaining these things I feel would help rather than have us wrestle over this. This discussion technically has been going on for almost 3 years, and I haven't even checked the edit history to see the reverts and their like. 🚂ThatTrainGuy1945 ^{Peep peep!} 18:07, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

Standard wording is 'X is a professional footballer. Born in Y, he plays for Z national team' or similar - i.e. the wording we have here. Giant Snowman 18:55, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

Only when the player doesn't play for their country of birth. Candidyeoman55 (talk) 19:08, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

No, when the nationality is ambiguous - as is the case here. Giant Snowman 20:45, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

I would agree if there was a balanced debate between the two sides. Here however, we have literally one person stating it’s ambiguous in their own judgement argueing against every one else in the discussion who say it isn’t. T v x1 15:53, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

No, I said I think his nationality is ambigous too. U003F ^? 19:33, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

Yeah, multiple people have said it's ambiguous... Giant Snowman 10:54, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

Why does the article say he was born in New York and therefore "became eligible for United States citizenship"? If he was born in New York he is (or became at the moment of his birth) a United States citizen. Full stop. There are countries where being born there makes you eligible to apply for citizenship at some later date. The United States is not one of them. ~2026-34695-47 (talk) 10:20, 13 June 2026 (UTC)

Good point, reverted. Giant Snowman 10:29, 13 June 2026 (UTC)

I think American-born Nigerian is a fair description or Nigerian American Imdeadinside12 (talk) 17:57, 13 June 2026 (UTC)

But he is not Nigerian, that's not even an option lmao. Giant Snowman 18:48, 13 June 2026 (UTC)

And there is widespread consensus already clearly established that we do not hyphenate on WP:FOOTY. Anwegmann (talk) 19:07, 13 June 2026 (UTC)

Calling him Nigerian doesn't make any sense here. Even if he had chosen Nigeria, it wouldn't be consistent with Wikipedia policy. I think he should be referred to on the first line as American, as he plays for the country of his birth. Candidyeoman55 (talk) 19:15, 13 June 2026 (UTC)

They want us to think that America is racist. They put 'he suffered racial abuse' right in his Senior Career summary.

As if everyone on the planet hasn't been insulted by an anonymous online social media message. Jmike11 (talk) 19:30, 15 June 2026 (UTC)

Texascowdude has been blocked as a sock. Giant Snowman 20:56, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

As an aside, was he a sock of that same guy who was making these same arguments super aggressively a few months ago? That thought crossed my mind. Anwegmann (talk) 20:58, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Yep, just checked. It was that Sharky400 dude. So lame. Anwegmann (talk) 20:59, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Born in the USA, played for the USA. His youth caps mean as much as Jack Grealish's or Declan Rice's. And Rice was even a senior RoI international. Unknown Temptation (talk) 12:30, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
...spent his entire like in the UK. His birth place was a fluke. Giant Snowman 13:19, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
José Santamaría was born in Uruguay and played for Uruguay - yet the lede doesn't describe him as such... Giant Snowman 21:00, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
Because he also played for Spain. Back then FIFA rules were different. Candidyeoman55 (talk) 21:04, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
But Balogun also played for England... Giant Snowman 06:18, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
Youth. Anwegmann (talk) 17:55, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman, Anwegmann, Candidyeoman55, and Texascowdude: I viewed his article after his great performance in the game against Paraguay and got a bit puzzled that he's considered only 'American' in the opening sentence. In similar cases, we omit the nationality in the first sentence. For instance, Wilfried Zaha, who was born in Ivory Coast, moved to England with his family at the age of four, played for the England national youth teams and now represents the Ivory Coast national team, has no nationality listed in the opening sentence. --Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:28, 13 June 2026 (UTC)
Until today, the lede did not say he was 'American' - I have restored that stable version. Giant Snowman 08:32, 13 June 2026 (UTC)
However, it did include "American" previously for a rather long time. Anwegmann (talk) 17:55, 14 June 2026 (UTC)
And it started life as 'English'... Giant Snowman 17:57, 14 June 2026 (UTC)
Incorrectly. Anwegmann (talk) 17:58, 14 June 2026 (UTC)
Not at all. When the article was created, he was considered 'English' by all. The unusual background to his birth place had zero relevance at that time. Giant Snowman 18:06, 14 June 2026 (UTC)
It's not a question of what was previously stable. Wikipedia is an evolving project, and changes are inevitable as articles are updated. The relevant criterion for determining the country in the opening sentence is MOS:CITIZEN. If Balogun holds citizenship in both the US and the UK, then both countries should be mentioned in the lead, consistent with the examples provided in the guideline. Usually, place of birth should not be mentioned if he is not currently a citizen of that country. Since he is an American citizen and achieved notability representing the US at the FIFA World Cup, omitting "American" from the lead is difficult to justify and goes against the guideline. Teegarden's Star b (talk) 14:45, 14 June 2026 (UTC)
Yet WP:IAR applies, and he would never be described as a 'British footballer', because such a concept doesn't really exist. Giant Snowman 14:55, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

I agree. Anwegmann (talk) 17:54, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

Please add IPA pronunciation

His name is of Nigerian origin, but put the American pronunciation here. Candidyeoman55 (talk) 17:24, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

Hi there - Wikipedia relies on reliable sources to verify information, especially about living people. What is the source for the 'correct' pronunciation? Giant Snowman 17:55, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

Inserting 'internet racism' into his Senior Career summary??

Real encyclopedic. Congratulations. You guys who protect that got your way. Inserting your racism stuff into everything. Jmike11 (talk) 23:45, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

Yoruba heritage

I was going to add a mention of Balogun's Yoruba heritage (source: https://www.ussoccer.com/players/b/folarin-balogun), but was prevented from doing so because this article appears to be locked from editing. Please fix this ridiculous situation! ~2026-37846-32 (talk) 01:56, 2 July 2026 (UTC)

Done. Giant Snowman 17:05, 2 July 2026 (UTC)