User talk:Pataliputra!

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How about installing auto-archive, to shorten your talkpage? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:17, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Joshua Jonathan: Thanks! I moved the content manually. Best! पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 10:21, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

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File:Map of the Sakas.png

The range on File:Map of the Sakas.png needs to be extended further west because the territory of the Massagetae reached the eastern and northern shores of the Caspian Sea until the Volga as well as the Kyzylkum and Karakum deserts and the Ustyurt plateau (see the "Location" section of Massagetae with the sources, and 519 BC: Persians Occupy the North Pontic Coast by Alexandru Avram in Connecting the Ancient West and East: Studies Presented to Prof. Gocha Tsetskhladze (2022)). Antiquistik (talk) 17:25, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

@Antiquistik:Thanks! I had this lingering doubt too. Tell me what you think of the new map (you might have to refresh your browser). Best पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 17:33, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
It's good, but:
  1. the range needs to include the Kyzylkum and Karakum deserts and the Ustyurt plateau
  2. the range on the north shore of the Caspian Sea should be thinner and not reach more northwards than the latitude of present-day Makat in Kazakhstan since the territories further north were inhabited by the non-Saka Sauromatae. Antiquistik (talk) 17:53, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
@Antiquistik: I tweaked further. Tell me what you think. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 18:39, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
It's better, but the range still needs to reach till the Volga delta in the north while not extending more northwards than the latitude of present-day Makat in Kazakhstan. Antiquistik (talk) 03:53, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
@Antiquistik: Like this? पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 04:59, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
Yes, that's it. It's perfect! Antiquistik (talk) 06:55, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
@Antiquistik: What is your perspective on adding the Ordos culture to the Saka realm? पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 07:26, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
I am presently not too familiar with the Ordos culture, but from what I understand, their identity is not certain. So it might be prudent to not include them into the Saka realm for now.
However, I will let you know if I find any further information on the issue. Antiquistik (talk) 07:42, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
@Antiquistik: Thanks! पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 08:11, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Is Map of the Saka and Scythian realms.png meant to represent all Scytho-Siberian cultures or only the Scythians and Saka?

If its meant to represent only the Scythian and Saka cultures, then it should include the Yuezhi, who were a Saka tribe (see Asii on Encyclopædia Iranica).

If it's meant to represent all Scytho-Siberian cultures, it should include the Sauromatians as well. Antiquistik (talk) 13:07, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Antiquistik:. Thanks for the comments. The Yuezhi are not considered as Saka, AFAIK. I tried to add the area of the Sauromatians. Tell me what you think. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 14:19, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
From what I understand, the Asioi, Pasianoi, Tocharoi, and Sakarauloi are collectively identified with the Yuezhi.
And at least the Sakaraukoi are considered Sakas. But since they were one of the tribes of the Yuezhi, this might imply that the Yuezhi themselves were part of the Saka according to the broader definition of the term. Antiquistik (talk) 15:09, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Hmm, I think I have never seen an identification of the Yuezhis with the Sakas. Probably better to leave this aside..... But it seems the Wusun may have been... पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 15:53, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Fair enough. Although everything known about the Yuezhi suggests they were Eastern Iranic nomads who were, at the very least, related to the Saka groups like the Massagetae (see the section on the Alans in Notes on the presence of Iranian peoples in Europe and their Asiatic relations by Marek Olbrycht.
So maybe it's worth including them on the map with their territory marked with another shade/another colour. Antiquistik (talk) 17:37, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Yuezhi prince from Khalchayan
Saka warrior from Khalchayan
Hi @Antiquistik:. Nice read, but I don't see any mention of the Yuezhis, nor a suggestion that the Yuezhis were Scythians or Iranians (maybe I missed something?). If I remember well, the Greco-Bactrians were first overrun by Scythians indeed, but the Yuezhi soon followed "in pursuit", ultimately even displacing the (Indo-)Scythians in India with the establishment of the Kushan Empire. I think nothing is known for certain about the ethnicity of the Yuezhi, but they certainly do not look very much like Scythians, and were even their enemies (see Khalchayan). They adopted the Iranian Bactrian language for their inscriptions (and the Greek script) while settling in Bactria, but that in itself does not make them Iranians (nor Greeks for that matter...). I'm afraid we would need some strong secondary sources about the Yuezhis being Scythians, if they were to be included in a map... पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 20:23, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
The line This statement vindicates the view that the Asioi, a powerful tribe which took part in the nomadic invasions o f Bactria in the 2nd century B.C., are to be identified as a people closely affiliated to the Alans on page 126 of the Olbrycht text is what I am referring to.
The Olbrycht article continues, "The location of the Alan homeland in Central Asia can be detected from information given by some classical writers (Jos. Bell.Jud. 7.244; Ptol. Geogr. 6.14.9. On this issue see Olbrycht 1998, 190ff.). Moreover, the Alans’ ancestors originated in the Transcaspian areas according to some writers of the Islamic period whose sources are obviously much earlier"
And then "The Classical writers Cassius Dio (69.15.1) and Ammianus Marcellinus (31.2.12; cf. 23.5.16) identify the Alans with the powerful people of the Massagetae, known in the Transcaspian steppes in the Achaemenid and Hellenistic periods. Based upon those statements and the tradition which connects the Alans with Central Asia, one can assume that the Alans were formed when some older tribal groupings embraced the Massagetae."
The Asioi are also the same as the Asii/Asiani that the Iranica article I linked to covers and which it identifies with the Yuezhi. And the Iranica article seems to identify the Asioi as being at least Iranic, and possibly even as a Saka (in the broader sense of the term) group.
The political differences do not necessarily mean that the Yuezhi could not have been related to the Sakas. Ethnicity does not necessarily correlated with positive political relations. For example, the Pontic Scythians had hostile relations with the Agathyrsi and the Cimmerians despite most Scythologists being of the opinion that these groups were very closely related and possibly even spoke the same dialect.
Likewise, the cultural differences are not necessarily an indicator of a lack of relation, given that, for example, only some tribes of the Sarmatians practised cranial deformation while the other Sarmatian tribes did not. Antiquistik (talk) 05:35, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
Hi @Antiquistik:. All of this is OK, but it all seems rather tentative and indirect, and based on uncertain interpretations of ancient sources. Even the Encyclopedia Iranica, although equating the Asii with the Yuezhi, does not affirm the Asii as Iranic (only their name as reported by ancient Western sources seems to have an Iranic root). Olbrycht only states that the Asioi associated with the Alans. To go back to our original matter, I'm afraid that as long as mainstream secondary sources do not affirm that "the Yuezhi were probably Scythians", we won't have a good reason to put the Yuezhis into a map of the Scythians (and personally I have never seen such sources). You don't have to convince me, it just has to be stated clearly by mainstream secondary sources. Thanks for the discussion! Best पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 06:05, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
Fair enough. This is quite reasonable. Antiquistik (talk) 06:10, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

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Manichaeism draft

I noticed you edited a lot of Manichaeism related articles and I am wondering whether you would be up for helping with this Manichaeism related draft Draft:Huastvanift Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 09:03, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you @Immanuelle: for the invite, but this is really beyond my area of expertise. I only edit sporadically in that erea... Best! पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 09:19, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

File:Princess Li Jingxun (died 608 CE) reenactment on Chinese television.jpg listed for discussion

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Xiongnu

About this edite done by Giresunlu1993 in 10:37, 13 October 2023 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1179928290

First; without source

Second: language of Xiongnu is unknown. An analysis by Savalyev and Jeong has cast doubt on the Yeniseian theory. If assuming that the ancient Yeniseians were represented by modern Ket people, who are more genetically similar to Samoyedic speakers, the Xiongnu do not display a genetic affinity for Yeniseian peoples 7712Touch74396 (talk) 23:50, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

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Why are you deleting my edit

Why are you deleting my edit????? Oilcocaine (talk) 20:46, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

  • @Oilcocaine: I am deleting those of your edits that do not make sense. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 20:49, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
    please discuss before deleting my edit Oilcocaine (talk) 20:58, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
    Pataliputra Lyuli are originated from India. Please check the "lyuli" article before deleting my edit Oilcocaine (talk) 21:01, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
    deleting Romani people in Central Asia in also see!!!
    How it can be irrelevant???
    Please discuss ??
    How someone's relevant is someone's irrelevant Oilcocaine (talk) 21:08, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
    Please do not start edit war please!!!!!! Oilcocaine (talk) 21:11, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
    @Oilcocaine: You have to obtain consensus on the Talk Pages of these articles.

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Season's Greetings

Season's Greetings
Wishing everybody a Happy Holiday Season, and all best wishes for the New Year! The Nativity scene on the Pulpit in the Pisa Baptistery by Nicola Pisano is my Wiki-Christmas card to all for this year. Johnbod (talk) 02:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Thank you @Johnbod:. Merry Christmas to you to! पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 08:43, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Egypt–Mesopotamia relations

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Although you've fixed the link from Kitâb al-Diryâq to the Theriaca disambiguation page, it still links to a dab page at Northern Iraq: I haven't fixed it because I don't know which meaning is best.

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Genetic admixture of modern Turkic-speaking populations map

Hello, I see you created this image: . Thanks for the work! Would you mind correcting the captions per source?

“ D, Ancestral composition of post‐Iron Age Eastern/Central Steppe pastoralists and modern Altaic‐speaking populations based on supervised ADMIXTURE. Mongolia_N_North (labeled as ANA in figure) and Ashina were chosen as ANA ancestry, Russia_Sintashta_MLBA was used as West Eurasian‐related ancestry, YR_LN was regarded as the additional millet farmers of Central Plain of China. The diverse ancestral compositions of post‐Iron Age Eastern/Central Steppe pastoralists showed a high proportion of East Eurasian ancestry in Eastern Steppe nomadic populations with the exception of early Xiongnu_west and late Xiongnu_Sarmatian, and West Eurasian ancestry dominant in Central Steppe nomadic populations. Present‐day Turkic populations exhibited high genetic heterogeneity with diverse proportions of ANA, and the ANA ancestry decreased almost longitudinally. ”

Also would you mind adding the population names like in the journal article? For example, Nog_S look like it's actually Turkey, whereas Trk (Turkey) looks like Cyprus). Thanks! Bogazicili (talk) 09:44, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

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deleted

deleted

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Battle of Waliyan moved to draftspace

Thanks for your contributions to Battle of Waliyan. Unfortunately, I do not think it is ready for publishing at this time because it needs more sources to establish notability. I have converted your article to a draft which you can improve, undisturbed for a while.

Please see more information at Help:Unreviewed new page. When the article is ready for publication, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page OR move the page back. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:40, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Empress Ashina

Aysugulgun said that Empress Ashina's name is Asena; he also claimed that he founded in Old Turkish Sources, but I Don't speak Turkish, nor I can find it,can you go back to my edit? Historydiver (talk) 03:51, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

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Sampul Tapestry origin discussion

I accept better judgement, but just for discussion, wouldn't you say that the fact that the tapestry seems to be Greek/Hellenistic (centaur with Herculean cape) and that the man in the image has a headband like many Greco-Bactrians and Greek rulers, plus the spear and likeness to images of Alexander the Great like those from Roman Egypt, could more likely be interpreted as a Greek rather than a Yuezhi? Why would he be a Yuezhi?

If you think it's a Yuezhi, we'll leave the wikipedia edit at that, but it's a possibility it could be Greek or at least Greco-Bactrian.

Cheers,

Helios Heliosfallen (talk) 12:16, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

@Heliosfallen: The style is Greco-Bactrian, but the individual is wearing Yuezhi clothes, not Greek ones (see the long tunique and red trousers). Most sources now consider the figure as Yuezhi, although there were indeed suggestions for Greek in older sources. Best. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 14:11, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Nomination of Battle of Waliyan for deletion

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Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

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Images

Please be more thorough in terms of image adding... HistoryofIran (talk) 23:37, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Map of Karnata dynasty

Hi, page 32 of the Schwartzberg Atlas has a location given for the Karnata dynasty. Given your experience with creating maps, would you be able to make one for the Karnat dynasty as well please?

Source: https://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/schwartzberg/pager.html?object=069

Thank you Ixudi (talk) 17:51, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

@Ixudi: I added a location map. Best पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 06:07, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Thank you! Very much appreciated. Ixudi (talk) 11:01, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

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Why did you remove my sourced material

Give me one good reason why you removed my sourced statements from the pages Mihir Bhoja and Paramara dynasty and I feel you are being biased here Harshitbhati2006jik (talk) 11:26, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Quoting from a blog and removing properly referenced material. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 11:55, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Vacations!

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Question

Hey, I see your work and I'm very amazed by it. Now I wanted to ask whether it is in your area of ​​interest to expand Kurdish entities of history articles? many of them are very thin filled. Thanks. Fuad Dijvan (talk) 14:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@Fuad Dijvan: Thanks! No not really, my centers of interests are pretty serendipitous. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 15:44, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

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Kara-Khanid map

Hello there,I’ve noticed that my edit was reverted (I changed the map which I took from https://www.thoughtco.com/turkey-facts-and-history-195767 as if you’re biased and a pan-turanist or something. What was the problem? What is your source? Can we come to an agreement? My map at least has a source, I don’t think the map is too different,I can’t see sources where Kara-khanids extended that north or east. I know about Suyab, of course it’s included in the map I put up. Cheers. Vofa (talk) 12:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Help

Hello, I appreciate your templates you started with South Asia in 1500 CE, etc. I have tried to create a template Template:Map of Himachal Pradesh kingdoms, unfortunately I am not able to get started on it because of multiple errors. I would really appreciate your help.

Thanks, GujaratiHistoryinDNA (talk) 21:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Pleass help

Look at this users Fact Check Mongol Eena2u Dorjzav

And edits they make https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=1218870559&oldid=1218870503&title=Slab-grave_culture&diffonly=1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=1207107068&oldid=1207024679&title=Slab-grave_culture&diffonly=1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=1219495811&oldid=1218930204&title=Slab-grave_culture&diffonly=1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=1219706509&oldid=1219528671&title=Slab-grave_culture&diffonly=1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ordos_culture&oldid=1219882144 Most likely they are the same person 7712Touch74396 (talk) 17:33, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

A barnstar for you

The Original Barnstar
Thank you for adding this intriguing little gem here. Uriel1022 (talk) 20:38, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
Thanks! पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 14:44, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Abhira-Kalachuri-Chedi era

hello, @पाटलिपुत्र. Can you make Abhira era map? https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Abhira_era_%28Kalachuri-Chedi_era%29.jpg 2409:4085:8E92:49A0:0:0:88C9:5D0F (talk) 07:45, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Aramaic inscription of Laghman

This is a bizarre non-NPOV article. As Falk (2006) notes, there is no accepted reading of the inscription; in contrast, you have reproduced Dupont-Sommer's reading of the inscription and translation. Hell, there is considerable doubt on whether it is an Asokan edict at the first place! TrangaBellam (talk) 14:56, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Falk (2009; p. 5-6):

There are some texts called 'Aśokan' which do not deserve this label. Cunningham in his first edition of the Aśokan texts included a stone inscription from Deotek, which no one today would link with Aśoka. An inscribed doorframe found at Amarāvatī is often referred to as Aśokan, but there is no proof that it really is. Much clearer are the two inscriptions from the Laghman valley in eastern Afghanistan. They are written in Aramaic script and language and contain a reference to Aśoka, but only as a means of dating them to his regnal years 10 and 16. Because of his name and because of the difficulties of this script, scholars were tempted to find references to Aśokan ideas in them. On the other side, we have some studies on these texts from specialists in Aramaic who show that they are the results of law cases, the verdicts of which the winners have put in stone to demonstrate their claims in public.

TrangaBellam (talk) 15:16, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Maps

sir TrangaBellam IDK where to contact पाटलिपुत्र so I am replying you on a recent talk, I have a request for you. DEMIS mapserver isnt working I guess. But I need a political map of south asia which overlaps correctly with that of the topographic map of south Asia. This is an anonymous comment, so kindly give me the image here. Thank you. I really need it Da.Pandit (talk) 08:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Continental Asia in 200 CE

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help

hi i was wondering if you could improve the cossacks page when you have time, I have seen that you have good contributed on other pages Turkiishh (talk) 00:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

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Hello पाटलिपुत्र, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2025.
Happy editing,
Abishe (talk) 23:58, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

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Abishe (talk) 23:58, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Simurgh as a "royal emblem".

In this edit, there's a claim about an imperial symbol that needs backing up. Could you kindly cite the source? RustyRapier (talk) 16:27, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

@RustyRapier:In this edit I only changed the layout it seems, the source was already there, from another user. The source which is provided seems to be more or less correct though, regarding the Simurgh as a royal emblem of the Sasanians... पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 17:25, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
I'll re-check who posted it then. What makes you say that? What's the source or reason cited by the one provided in the article? RustyRapier (talk) 17:32, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
@पाटलिपुत्र No, it seems the source wasn't there in the previous edits. Care to elaborate? RustyRapier (talk) 17:35, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
It was (just compare the content of the two columns). It was just moved for layout purposes... पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 18:59, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
Where was the mentioned reference? RustyRapier (talk) 21:28, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
ah, you're right, don't know why I didn't spot it in full article view, sorry. RustyRapier (talk) 21:29, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Scythians and Sakas

Template:Scythians and Sakas has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Gonnym (talk) 08:34, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

New message to पाटलिपुत्र

Hey there! I'm working on the Writing article, and want to include more information on the cultural associations built up surrounding writing over time. Apologies if your tweak to File:Image from page 39 of "Ancient seals of the Near East" (1940).jpg means I'm unduly putting you on the spot years later, but do you happen to know which deity pictured is Nabu and which is Marduk? My half-educated guess is that Nabu is on the left and Marduk is on the right, but I want to be sure before I caption it. If you're not sure or whatever, no problem! Cheers. Remsense ‥ 论 15:35, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

@Remsense: Per the source , Marduk is the deity on the right, and Nabu the one on the left. Best. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 19:16, 25 April 2025 (UTC)
Thank you! Remsense ‥ 论 19:21, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Asia 576 CE

Hello, I was going to move {{Asia 576 CE}} to {{Continental Asia in 576 CE}} so that it can be automatically sorted into Category:Labelled maps of Continental Asia in history, but I noticed you previously made that move but self-reverted. Would it be sound to redo the move, or does it belong on its own? Tule-hog (talk) 04:33, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

(Same for {{Asia in 210 BCE}}.) Tule-hog (talk) 05:03, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

Jalaluddin Khalji depiction

The inscription at the top of the photo clearly reads "Jalaluddin" in Persian, not Humayun. Noorullah (talk) 17:47, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

Though I do agree, it does characteristically look like much of Humayun's portraits.. Noorullah (talk) 17:49, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

Hi @Noorullah21: As you may know, this specific headdress, the Tāj-i 'Izzat ("Crown of Power and Glory"), was invented by Humayun in 1532 after his return from Persia, as a response to the Persian Taj-i Haydari, and soon discontinued by the time of his son Akbar . So it is simply impossible for this headdress to be worn by Jalal-ud-Din Khalji more than two centuries before. The image in question is either a fake or a mislabelling. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 18:23, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

HELLO PATLIPUTRA, LETS TALK

Hey, thanks for dedicating a page for Kalsi Ashokan edict. However, I must inform this to you that I am a native from this region and this place's name is pronounced as Kaal-Sea and not Khal-si or Kal-si @पाटलिपुत्र pls see this it is from the new parliament of india and th name is spelled correctly here. Even ncert books are shwoing wrong name in hindi and I am loking to rectify this to the authorities of ncert in the near future.

P L E A S E C H A N G E T H E N A M E O F T H E T O P I C KALSI

Jaunsari guy 167 (talk) 05:25, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

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Where do you find them?

Hey, hope you're doing well, where do you find stuff like this? and generally other depictions like such (like the Alauddin, and Jalaluddin Khalji ones) do you have a specific library website to look through? Interested to know, thanks. Noorullah (talk) 05:12, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Hi @Noorullah21:. No, it's really case-by-case (some paintings have a precise description and the ruler is clearly identified). As to sources, if you don't have it I really recommend access to the Wikipedia Library because of the huge amount of reference works it gives access to. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 05:54, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

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The World Destubathon

Hello. You're invited to participate in The World Destubathon. We're aiming to destub a lot of articles and also improve longer stale articles. It will be held from Monday June 16 - Sunday July 13. There is $3338 going into it, with $500 the top prize and $250 worth of prizes for architectural articles. If you are interested in winning something to help you buy books for future content, or just see it as a good editathon opportunity to see a lot of articles improved for articles which interest you, sign up on the page in the participants section if interested.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:54, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

There is no need to engage in vandalism....

Information icon Hello, I'm Strikebella. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions to Babur have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Teahouse or the Help desk. Thanks. Strikebella (talk) 15:45, 30 June 2025 (UTC) (unintentional vandalism/test)

Hi @Strikebella: Thanks, but it's not. The image was crowding the paragraph, where it was not really relevant, and by the way this image already appears (in part) higher up in the article. Best पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 15:50, 30 June 2025 (UTC)
@Strikebella: And if it's about your addition of the paragraph "Babri Masjid" , well it's quite irrelevant there, don't you think? You should create a separate article. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 15:53, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Control copyright icon Hello पाटलिपुत्र! Your additions to Turkic peoples have been removed in whole or in part, as they appear to have added copyrighted content without evidence that the source material is in the public domain or has been released by its owner or legal agent under a suitably free and compatible copyright license—to request such a release, see Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission. While we appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia, it's important to understand and adhere to guidelines about using information from sources to prevent copyright and plagiarism issues. Here are the key points:

It's very important that contributors understand and follow these practices. Persistent failure to comply may result in being blocked from editing. If you have any questions or need further clarification, please ask them here on this page, or leave a message on my talk page. I am not sure your edit meets Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria Thank you. Bogazicili (talk) 15:35, 10 July 2025 (UTC)

@Bogazicili: Are you sure? I entirely drew the image (from scratch). The source is also properly referenced... पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 15:40, 10 July 2025 (UTC)
That's what I used to think too, but my understanding changed after this: User_talk:Sennecaster/Archive_3#Copyright_question
The results use algorithms such as ADMIXTURE, and the way they showed Sintashta etc in pie charts are not "simple graphs which exhibit no creative elements"
If you click the pdf in academia.edu, it also shows it is copyrighted.
You can always ask someone more knowledgeable than me about copyright if you are still unsure. It's a nice graph actually, would be nice to add it back. Bogazicili (talk) 15:46, 10 July 2025 (UTC)
Maybe you can ask here: Wikipedia:Media copyright questions Bogazicili (talk) 15:49, 10 July 2025 (UTC)
@Bogazicili: It's OK, I've transformed your Speedy Deletion request on Commons into a regular deletion request, so that we can have feedback from an expert. In 8 years on Wikipedia, I've never seen redrawn statistical graphs being challenged. I don't believe showing data in pie graph form to be a "creative element" in itself either. The data itself is properly sourced and referenced, and it's essentially being quoted, which we have the right to do on Wikipedia. But we'll see what the experts say... Thanks पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 16:05, 10 July 2025 (UTC)
The point with User_talk:Sennecaster/Archive_3#Copyright_question is different, they are only saying that data is not copyrightable, nor are simple standard presentation methods. Showing genetic pie charts on a map of the world is very "simple & standard" in my opinion.... They even answer that a simple graph could be uploaded without even worrying about copyright per {{PD-simple}}, which is quite amazing. In that case, taking the pain to redraw a simple and standard statistical graph shouldn't be any problem at all from a copyright perspective... पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 16:13, 10 July 2025 (UTC)
I don't think there is "a simple genetic pie chart", the results will be different based on methods they used in a study.
It's not like a pie chart showing census results about demographics. Bogazicili (talk) 16:22, 10 July 2025 (UTC)
@Bogazicili: Well, data is not copyrightable per User_talk:Sennecaster/Archive_3#Copyright_question, whatever the method used to get it. Pie charts are not copyrightable either, being purely mechanical ways of expressing the data (zero creativity). Displaying pie charts on a geographical map is also essentially mechanical as well, given that the data is geo-determined. In the chart I created, the background map was changed to a free CC map, and the whole display of the (non-copyrightable) data were redrawn and adjusted from scratch, even the colors, the fonts, some positions, titles, labels, were changed, so in all likelihood there is absolutely no copyright issue here. All data was properly quoted and attributed, both on English Wikipedia and on Commons. As far as I know, it is also a very standard way of creating graphs on Wikipedia. If you're convinced, you can remove your deletion request. If not, we'll wait for the experts to comment. Best पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 16:38, 10 July 2025 (UTC)
 Done This was resolved favorably on Commons , where it was concluded that the file was Keep, and there were no copyright issues with it. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 05:11, 26 August 2025 (UTC)

Please don't use ResearchGate as a source

WP:RSNP says "General repositories like Academia.edu, HAL Open Archives, ResearchGate, Semantic Scholar, and Zenodo host academic papers, conference proceedings, book chapters, preprints, technical reports, etc. No filters exist for quality, and will host several unreviewed preprints, retracted papers not marked as such, unreviewed manuscripts, and even papers from predatory journals. Determine the original source of what is being cited to establish reliability. When possible, cite the original source in preference to the repository." Thanks. Doug Weller talk 08:27, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 08:33, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

Slow down please

Can you please slow down with your edits to SW Asian Neolithic topics? You are removing good content without adequate reasoning, adding vast amounts of material referenced to inappropriate primary sources or out-and-out pseudoscientists like Martin Sweatman, and doing so with such rapid-fire tiny edits that it's hard to even see what you are changing. Making related changes together in one edit, with a useful edit summary, would be highly appreciated by your fellow editors. Discussing major changes on the talk page even more so. – Joe (talk) 13:23, 22 August 2025 (UTC)

This, for example... what on earth is the information that people from a completely different site were '50% Anatolian Epipaleolithic' (whatever that means) supposed to add to readers' understanding of Göbekli Tepe? How is a paper about the genome of someone that lived 1000 km away, 6000 years later, and which doesn't even mention the site, relevant? And haven't we talked before about how, if you find yourself citing not just primary sources, but tables in the supplementary materials of primary sources, that's a strong sign that you have gone far beyond summarising significant views from secondary sources? – Joe (talk) 13:36, 22 August 2025 (UTC)
Please go ahead, you are the expert. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 15:14, 22 August 2025 (UTC)

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Ancient Egypt edit

On August 14th you added a Harvnb cite to this article. This cite does not have a complete reference to target, so the article is in Category:Harv and Sfn no-target errors. Please add the Montet 1968 reference to the article so Ref #38 will stop throwing a Harv error. See Template:Sfn#Possible issues & User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors. - Shearonink (talk) 01:35, 26 August 2025 (UTC)

 Done Thank you for catching this! पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 05:07, 26 August 2025 (UTC)

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sceptre in Art of Mathura iconography

Sun God Surya, also revered in Buddhism, Kushan Period
A Surya of the Kushan period, in northern clothing. 2nd–3rd century CE, Art of Mathura.[1]

Greetings,

A recent open source paper by Mondal, Branit. Museological Perspectives on the Mathura School of Art the Case for a Dedicated Gallery in the Indian Museum, Kolkata ssm.com link describes plate no21 a Surya image is holding a Sceptre in one hand. I did not find image to be clear enough. Can you help confirm if any Surya iconography image of Art of Mathura included sceptre?

Looking for help in update of User:Bookku/Indian sceptre

Bookku (talk) 11:30, 22 September 2025 (UTC)

@Bookku: Similar to this image I think (not exactly the same one though). As far as I know, Surya generally holds a lotus flower in his right hand, which symbolizes purity, enlightenment, and the solar radiance. The left hand here clearly holds a short sword. Best पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 14:29, 22 September 2025 (UTC)
Ok many thanks Bookku (talk) 14:52, 22 September 2025 (UTC)

References

  1. Revire, Nicolas (1 January 2017). "Kinsman of the Sun: An Early Buddha Image in the Asian Art Museum, Berlin, and Solar Symbolism". Indo-Asiatische Zeitschrift. 20–21: 3–14 [10].

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Hello

Hi there so i was wondering if you would like to help me work on Draft:Battle of Lahore (1241) ? Because i’ve seen your profile and you might know way more info about indias history than me so i was wondering if you can possibly help? Shadow. 547 (talk) 09:40, 4 October 2025 (UTC)

It’s called Siege of Lahore (1241) now if you see this Shadow. 547 (talk) 17:22, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

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Nomination for discussion of Template:Continental Asia in 10000 BP

Template:Continental Asia in 10000 BP has been nominated for discussion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 15:53, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

Happy First Edit Anniversary पाटलिपुत्र 🎉

Hey @पाटलिपुत्र. Your wiki edit anniversary was 1 day ago, marking 9 years of dedicated contributions to English Wikipedia. Your passion for sharing knowledge and your remarkable contributions have not only enriched the project, but also inspired countless others to contribute. Thank you for your amazing contributions. Wishing you many more wonderful years ahead in the Wiki journey. :) -❙❚❚❙❙ GnOeee ❚❙❚❙❙ ✉ 12:12, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

Bias genetics of sintashta article

Ancient genome of Empress Ashina reveals the Northeast Asian origin of Göktürk Khanate

"Burial relics excavated from the Xiaoling Mausoleum and Population structure of newly sampled and published populations in Eurasia. A, Maps of ancient regimes in 572 CE (Tan, 1989) and the cemetery of the newly sampled ancient individual, Epitaph of Empress Wude, and Seal of the Empress dowager Tianyuan. B, Principal component analysis (PCA) of ancient individuals projected onto present‐day Eurasians. The west–east cline along PC1 and north–south gradient along PC2 were visible (also see Fig. S3). C, Unsupervised ADMIXTURE clustering analysis (K = 5) was based on HO data set for the ancient individual and selected subset of temporally preceding and later Eurasian ancient and modern populations. D, Ancestral composition of post‐Iron Age Eastern/Central Steppe pastoralists and modern Altaic‐speaking populations based on supervised ADMIXTURE. Mongolia_N_North (labeled as ANA in figure) and Ashina were chosen as ANA ancestry, Russia_Sintashta_MLBA was used as West Eurasian‐related ancestry, YR_LN was regarded as the additional millet farmers of Central Plain of China. The diverse ancestral compositions of post‐Iron Age Eastern/Central Steppe pastoralists showed a high proportion of East Eurasian ancestry in Eastern Steppe nomadic populations with the exception of earlyXiongnu_west and lateXiongnu_Sarmatian, and West Eurasian ancestry dominant in Central Steppe nomadic population"

This is using sintashta as a PROXY for ALL west eurasian ancestry, anyone of west eurasian ancestry would come up as 100 percent sintashta, which includes all of europe, north africa and the middle east, further more all the closet modern populations to sintashta are north Europe populations and Turkish is very distant,

" Bronze age Northern Eurasian genetics in the context of development of metallurgy and Siberian ancestry "

"individuals with more Sintashta-like Western_Steppe_MLBA ancestry (e.g., ROT003) are closer to modern-day (North) Europeans, including Norwegian, Belarusian, Lithuanian, Scottish and Icelandic individuals"


Why is this always left out? Despite the dozens of studies that mention it?

Or phenotype


"A genetic probe into the ancient and medieval history of Southern Europe and West Asia"

The supplement file of this 200 author harvard study clearly says specifically that sintashta is 29-55 percent blue eyes and 14-60 percent blond haired, yet this is ignored by Wikipedia even years later, and you wonder why it not a reliable source,

Again you do understand that sintashta is the main population used for steppe mlba right?

"Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans"

"Middle/Late Bronze Age steppe populations resemble central/northern European"

The truth always comes out, anyone who understands dna knows what a proxy is and that turks are not exclusively sintashta, and that all Europeans and even more north Europe is closer to steppe mlba then any Turkic population including Western Turk and especially Anatolian Turks which are majority Mediterranean ancestry 68.9.255.238 (talk) 15:42, 2 November 2025 (UTC)

What's your point, in a nutshell? पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 15:49, 2 November 2025 (UTC)
Do I really need to explain this to you? I'm pretty sure you are well aware that west Eurasian ancestry includes many populations that have no relation to sintashta, yet you used a source that uses sintashta for west eurasian ancestry, not exclusively sintashta....c'mon you very well know that Anatolian Turks have almost no steppe ancestry and are very distant from sintashta, but you used it anyway, while completely avoiding studies that show steppe mlba cluster with North Europe even if it specifically mentioned sintashta, looks like you are racist to me, you don't include any phenotype information and you completely avoid the overwhelming fact North Europe is closer to steppe mlba and sintashta, then any other modern populations, why would the only study you mention be the ashina Turk study despite the endless amount of studies on steppe mlba, the new scythian study clearly says again that six of eight srubnaya steppe mlba have light hair and three have blue eyes and the supplements say all but one has light skin 68.9.255.238 (talk) 16:12, 2 November 2025 (UTC)

A request

Hello, @पाटलिपुत्र, I hope you're doing fine. I have been observing your tremendous contribution to Safavid articles in terms of pictures and images and I wanted to kindly ask you to help me with this particular painting: https://www.christies.com/lot/shah-ismail-safavi-and-six-of-his-5603997/?intObjectID=5603997&lid=1

This is a very interesting Mughal painting of Ismail I alongside his descendants from Bahram Mirza's side; it contains an imaginary depiction of Soltan Hosayn Mirza Safavi, for example, which would be a great addition to the article which is now imageless. The thing is, I am not quite skilled with images (can't even download this image), would be able to help me out here? Cheers. Amir Ghandi (talk) 11:52, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

@Amir Ghandi: Good find! You will find the uploaded images here. I am not sure about the all the categorizations, please check. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 12:55, 11 November 2025 (UTC)
Thanks for the great work! I'll check on the categories and fix them up if needed. Thanks again! Amir Ghandi (talk) 15:36, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

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Publish this plz, it is yours

Vakhtang Gorgasali's campaign in the Northern Caucasus

Vakhtang Gorgasali's campaign in the Northern Caucasus
Date466 AD
Location
Northern Caucasus (Alania, Pachanigeti, Jiketi)[1]
Result Iberian victory
Belligerents

Supported by:

Sassanian empire
Commanders and leaders
Vakhtang Gorgasali Bakatar

Vakhtang Gorgasali's campaign in the Northern Caucasus was a military campaign led by the Kingdom of Iberia under King Vakhtang Gorgasali against the nomadic invaders from the North Caucasus. The campaign, supported by the Sassanian empire, ended in an Iberian victory and an end to nomadic raids into Iberia.

Background

In the 5th century, the Caucasus was at the intersection of the interests of Byzantine and Sassanid empires. However, the Iranian positions were stronger and the Kingdom of Iberia, as well as many other kingdoms, were Iranian vassals.[2] Starting from 373, Iberia was divided in two parts, with one being a vassal of Persia, while the other, southwestern part, was under Byzantine influence.[3]

The Kingdom of Iberia enjoyed relative prosperity with the developed agriculture and city life. However, being an early feudal kingdom, it also suffered from decentralizing tendencies and various internal issues.[4] The Georgian Christian Church suffered from the expansion of Zoroastrian influence under Iranian auspecies, with the bishop of Zoroastrians enjoying same rights in the kingdom's decision-making as the head of the Georgian Church.[4]

The Iranian pressure on the Caucasian kingdoms increased in the first half of the 5th century under Shah Yazdegerd II. He introduced a new military duty, including an obligation for his vassals to levy manpower for Iranian expansionist wars against the nomadic states in the Central Asia and the territory of modern Afghanistan. Moreover, he pushed for increasing the Zoroastrian influence and imposed new taxes meant to further strangle the independence of the Caucasian kingdoms.[2]

When Iberian King Mirdat died, his successor, prince Vakhtang was only seven years old. At that time, his mother Sagdukht went to Barda to ask her father Barzabod, the Bidaxsh of Arran, not to force Vakhtang to change his religion.[2] It seems that Bidaxsh of Arran was a suzerain of Iberia during this time.[5] Barzabod "showed mercy" towards her daughter and agreed to allow Vakhtang to remain Christian, although also strengthening the propaganda of Zoroastrianism in Iberia by sending new Zoroastrian bishops to promote this faith. Bidaxsh of Arran mediated Vakhtang's accession to throne, which led to Iranian Shah approving his accession by sending a crown with the precious stones.[2]

Additionally, Iberia, as well as Byzantines and Irainians, suffered from the nomadic invasions, with the Iberia being affected the most by the invasions through North Caucasian roads, while Byzantines and Iranians were also engaging nomands on other frontiers. Byzantines were even paying Iran a military subsidy to protect North Caucasian mountain passes from the nomands, mostly Huns and others.[6]

Campaign

When Vakhtang was 10 years old, the Huns and Saragurs invaded from the North Caucasus and looted Iberia, Armenia and Arran. They also took Vakhtang's sister Mirandukht as a captive. The Georgian Chronicles calls the invaders Ossetians, which attests their participation too.[5] The invaders pillaged Iberia from the the source of Kura river to Khunan, although they could not capture any castle town except Kaspi. After the invasion, they returned to the Northern Caucasus through the Daruband pass.[7]

When King Vakhtang became 15 years old, he began to prepare for a campaign against the northern nomands. Vakhtang realized that rebelling against the Sassanid rule would only bring devastating results at this point, and that he would need to prepare for an appropriate moment. Moreover, the nomadic invasions were a more immediate concern, something that also united Iranians and Byzantines under a common banner. While fighting against Iran at this point would have been too difficult, the nomadic invasions could not be left unanswered. Vakhtang did understand that to achieve complete independence, he would eventually need to fight with the Sassanids. However, at this stage more important matters were strengthening Iberian borders and centralizing the state authority. Not only did Vakhtang simply agree to be Iranian vassal as a part of this policy, but he would also go on and take part as an Iranian vassal in Iranian wars in the Central Asia to protect its eastern borders from nomands in the 460s.[8]

Vakhtang convened Darbazi (advisory council) to conduct the campaign against the nomads in the North Caucasus. Vakhtang used his status as a vassal of Iran to strengthen his ambitions. The invasion of nomands into the Iberia meant, besides other things, the violation of Iranian sovereignty, therefore, Vakhtang asked the Bidaxsh of Arran, Varaz-Bakur, of assistance, because during their invasion, the nomads not only raided Iberia, but also the lands of Varaz-Bakur, who was a successor to Barzabod.[9]

Vakhtang built a large alliance across the kingdoms of the Caucasus, and led a campaign which ended in a massive success. The army first camped at Mukhrani Valley and Kherki (near Saguramo), after which they moved to Tianeti and were joined by the North Caucasian allies, first of all Kist-Bats people and the tribal leaders of the Dagestan.[10] The opposing forces met and clashed at the river of Terek.[11] The army led by Vakhtang secured victory, captured a large loot and freed all hostages, including Vakhtang's sister. Most importantly, Vakhtang firmly secured the Dariali Pass. He put his garrison in the gorge, formally securing Iranian, but in fact a Georgian northern border. He expanded Georgian influence over Dvaleti, Alania, Dzurdzuketi, Didoeti and Tsuketi. After this, Vakhtang controlled the roads to the North Caucasus and the movement of nomands.[12]

After securing Dariali Pass, Vakhtang continued moving westward and crossed into Abkhazia through the Klukhori pass.[13] Lazica was ruled at this point by Gubazes I, whose relations with his suzerain, the Byzantine Emperor, cooled following the Byzantine annexation of some of Laz territories and Laz revolt against the empire, which is described by Priscus of Panium in fragments no. 25 and 26 of his "Gothic History".[14][15] Although the conflict was settled by 465, the Svan tribe used the opportunity to revolt against the Byzantines and Lazs.[16] Lazs asked the Byzantines for help, while the Svans requested assistance from the Persians and Iberians.[17] This happened in 466. According to Priscus, the Byzantines sent an army led by the general Heraclius, but the conflict with the Persians and Iberians was avoided as they became preoccupied with "other engagements" (possibly, the Hunnic and Saragur invasion of Iberia which could have happened this year).[18] However, in 467-468, Svans revolted again and asked for Persian assistance. This is when Vakhtang Gorgasali led his force from the North Caucasus into Lazica. The Byzantine emperor Leo I was unable to send his troops to aid Lazica, and in three years Vakhtang managed to conquer all fortresses up until Tsikhegoji.[19]

Aftermath

Vakhtang shared his loot with Bidaxsh of Arran and Shah of Iran. He sent a large diplomatic mission to the Shah, headed by the bishop of Kartli's Zoroastrians Binkaran. Vakhtang asked Iranian Shah of his daughter's hand, and the Shah agreed to marry him his daughter Balendukht. Thus, in a major diplomatic step, Vakhtang became dynastically connected to Shah Hormizd III.[12][20]

Vakhtang managed to spread his rule over Egrisi. He annexed the historic Argveti and Svaneti provinces. Although Egrisi and Svaneti became principalities within Iberia, their princes most likely were still appointed from the local dynasties and by Shah's approval.[21] The border of Iberia now run along the Kelasuri river as the territory north of it, Abasgia, was firmly held by Byzantium.[22]

In the immediate future Vakhtang also proceeded to recover Klarjeti from the Byzantines. This was territory of Iberia which seceded in the 370s under the protection of the Byzantines. He also recovered Adjara, Samtskhe, Artaani and Javakheti, and thus entire territory of "Western Iberia" which was a Byzantine protectorate.[23] Vakhtang would also proceed to build many fortresses in Klarjeti as a possible refuge for a potential future rebellion against Iran. In the east, Vakhtang managed to annex parts of Hereti and Kiziki, as well as Tsakhet-Tsakhuri. Here he created the new duchy of Hereti. All these actions were taken by Vakhtang as a vassal of Iran and, in some cases, even with the help of Iranian troops.[24]

In the 460s, Vakhtang fought with the Iranian troops against Hephthalites on the eastern frontier of Iran. He also managed to make Byzantium recognize the Georgian Church's autocephaly.[25] Vakhtang later married the daughter of Byzantine Emperor and, after securing his positions, confronted Iran in the late 470s by expelling Zoroastian priests. However, Iberia suffered a successful Iranian invasion, with the Byzantine envoy managing to negotiate a truce between Vakhtang and Shah Peroz. Shah agreed to stop propagating Zoroastrianism in Iberia, although it largely remained an Iranian vassal. However, Vakhtang would continue causing problems to Iran as he soon would launch another revolt in 482, this time after Iranians suffered a defeat at the hands of Hepthalites, amidst an ongoing rebellion against Iranian authorities in the Caucasian Albania. This would coincide with the simulatenous Armenian revolt against the Sassanids.[26] Although the Iranian army would manage to overwhelm the Armenian and Iberian rebels, it would withdraw from the Caucasus after the death of Shah Peroz at the hands of Hepthalites in 484. This would bring a short-lived independence for Iberia, until in 491 new shah Kavad I launched a war against Byzantium and invaded Iberia, which caused Vakhtang to die from wounds. In the 520s, the peace treaty between Byzantium and Iran restored the former boundaries between the empires and Tbilisi was governed by a Persian marzpan.[27]

Date

The campaign is described by the medieval Georgian historian Juansher Juansheriani in the Georgian chronicles, which does not specifies a date. Juansher Juansheriani mentions that the Vakhtang Gorgasali's campaign occured 5-6 years after the nomadic invasion into Iberia.[28]

The nomadic invasion described by Juansher is usually identified with one of the Hunnic and Saragur raids in Transcaucasia, mentioned by Priscus of Panium in different fragments of his "Gothic History", with one occuring in 448 while the other in 466.[29] Georgian historian David Muskhelishvili equated the nomidic invasion to the one described by Priscus in the no. 8 fragment of his "Gothic History" which speaks of the Hunnic invasion of Media, occuring in 448, although opponents of this view consider this fragment to be actually describing the Hunnic raid of 395, which did not affect Iberia.[30] Historians Nodar Lomouri and Anri Bogveradze equate the nomadic invasion in Juansher's work to the Saragur invasion of 466 described in the no. 37 fragment of "Gothic History".[31]

Historian Margit Bíró identifies the nomadic invasion with the Hunnic campaign against the Caucasian Albania, which is described by Armenian medieval historians Elishe and Movses Kaghankatvatsi. Vache II of Albania used political instability in Persia following the death of Shah Yazdegerd II to renounce his loyality to Sassanids, which led to Shah Peroz I letting Huns to raid his country between 459 and 463. Thus, according to Bíró, the main aim of the raid was Caucasian Albania.[32][28] It is not known whether Georgians participated in this rebellion.[33]

Georgian historian Giorgi Shurgaia reconciles conflicting facts by claiming that in 460, while Persians were fighting the Albanians, they opened the Darial Pass and allowed Albania to be raided by the Huns, which pillaged Iberia too. The nomadic invasion described by Juansher is the same as the one described by Elishe and is placed in 460. The Vakhtang's campaign happened six years later in 466. This occured after a friendly treaty between the Byzantines and Saragurs in 463 and the Saragur invasion of Transcausia in 466, including the invasion of Iberia, after which Shah Peroz gave a mandate to Vakhtang to launch a campaign against the nomands. However, through this campaign Vakhtang also began a process of weakening Sassanid rule over Iberia, since he now himself controlled the Dariali Pass and could enlist nomands against the Iranians, which he indeed did in 483.[34]

The friendly treaty between the Byzantines and Saragurs is described by Priscus: Saragurs, Oghurs and Onogurs sent a diplomatic mission to Byzantium, after they were driven from their lands to the Northern Caucasus by Sabirs. There they attacked and subdued the Hun-Akatziris. The Byzantine Emperor Leo sent ambassadors back with many gifts. In 466, the Huns, including Akatziris and other tribes, launched a campaign against the Persians according to Priscus. They invaded Iberia and Armenia and looted their settlements. The Byzantines refused to pay a military subsidy to Persians to protect the areas, which led to the Shah sending Vakhtang Gorgasali back to Iberia from the ongoing campaign against the Kidara Huns in the Central Asia. According to some historians, this Hunnic invasion to Transcaucasia was provoked by the Byzantines.[35][10]

Muskhelashvili has also theorized that as Juansher was not Vakhtang's contemporary, his account of the nomadic invasion could have been a reflection unifying the elements of both the 448 and 466 campaigns, with the Vakhtang's sister being abducted in 466 rather than 448.[36]

References

  1. Alasania 2008, p. 36.
  2. Lortkipanidze 2006, p. 119.
  3. Muskhelashvili 2003, p. 146.
  4. Lortkipanidze 2006, p. 117.
  5. Lortkipanidze 2006, p. 120.
  6. Lortkipanidze 2006, pp. 116–117.
  7. Shurgaia 2021, p. 138.
  8. Lortkipanidze 2006, pp. 119–120.
  9. Lortkipanidze 2006, pp. 120–121.
  10. Muskhelashvili 2003, p. 148.
  11. Muskhelashvili 2003, p. 149.
  12. Lortkipanidze 2006, p. 121.
  13. Muskhelashvili 2003, p. 150.
  14. Muskhelashvili 2003, p. 150-151.
  15. Bíró 1997, p. 56-58.
  16. Muskhelashvili 2003, p. 154.
  17. Muskhelashvili 2003, p. 155.
  18. Bíró 1997, p. 60.
  19. Muskhelashvili 2003, pp. 156–157.
  20. Rayfield 2012, p. 44.
  21. Muskhelashvili 2003, pp. 161–162.
  22. Muskhelashvili 2003, p. 162.
  23. Muskhelashvili 2003, pp. 163–164.
  24. Lortkipanidze 2006, p. 122.
  25. Rayfield 2012, p. 45.
  26. Rayfield 2012, p. 46.
  27. Rayfield 2012, p. 47.
  28. Shurgaia 2021, p. 148.
  29. Bíró 1997, p. 54.
  30. Shurgaia 2021, p. 138-140.
  31. Shurgaia 2021, p. 140.
  32. Bíró 1997, p. 58-59.
  33. Alasania 2008, p. 34.
  34. Shurgaia 2021, p. 148-151.
  35. Alasania 2008, p. 35-36.
  36. Muskhelashvili 2003, p. 195.

Sources

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Gupta Empire

Hello, I had wrote a few things on the talk page of the Gupta Empire, but I don't seem to be getting any attention, you seen to be active on that article. ScrubbedSoap (talk) 19:50, 29 November 2025 (UTC)

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Season's Greetings!

Season's Greetings
Wishing everybody a Happy Holiday Season, and all best wishes for the New Year! The Dream of Saint Joseph (1640s) by Philippe de Champaigne is my Wiki-Christmas card to all for this year. Johnbod (talk) 17:36, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

Could you please join the Mauryan Empire Talk page

Hi!,

I believe that what has been written on that page, especially regarding the empire's centralization, is very one sided and distorted. There are also several issues with the map that has been used(the one with holes). I am trying to get a conversation going regarding them, could you please join. We would love to hear your opinion.

Thank You!

Oceanbed347 (talk) 11:33, 20 December 2025 (UTC)

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Discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2026 February 17 § Template:Rulers of medieval England

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In need of your opinion

Hello, would you consider sharing your opinion on a debate in Talk:Reza Qoli Mirza Afshar about the infobox image? Thank you. Amir Ghandi (talk) Amir Ghandi (talk) 18:59, 18 February 2026 (UTC)

User talk:Amir Ghandi, sorry, not knowledgeable enough about the period... पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 20:23, 18 February 2026 (UTC)

M&Ms

Howdy. Thanks for pointing out my spelling mistakes. But to save yourself from adding/deleting posts? Contact me at my page :) GoodDay (talk) 22:33, 21 February 2026 (UTC)

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Name-change

Clearer! Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:51, 15 May 2026 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan: I thought so... Thanks! Pataliputra! (talk) 14:03, 15 May 2026 (UTC)

Krishna

Why did you reverted my edit on Krishna article where I removed Bopearachchi source, as it wasn't associated with a reliable publisher as suggested at peer review? Also, you didn't mention how it is reliable??? PhantomVorteX (Talk) 10:17, 22 May 2026 (UTC)

@VortexPhantom: Osmund Bopearachchi is a well-known authority on the subject (Emeritus Director of the CNRS at the École normale supérieure and Adjunct Professor of Central and South Asian Art, Archaeology, and Numismatics, University of California, Berkeley), please read the Wikipedia article about him for example. Most of his material is published by highly reliable publishers, but he also occasionally self-publishes. Per WP:RS: "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications." Was there a specific discussion at peer review? If so, can you provide the link? Best Pataliputra! (talk) 10:33, 22 May 2026 (UTC)
Sure, PR is happening here. Even so, I don't think Osmund Bopearachchi is still a reliable source. The cited part was a research paper, it wasn't linked in any other catalogue such as JSTOR, the article about them which you linked is largely unsourced, so can't be trusted. PhantomVorteX (Talk) 10:47, 22 May 2026 (UTC)
Well, I'm pretty sure Osmund Bopearachchi would be considered a highly reliable source by anybody, for sources see , you can also check Google Scholar for his work example. As for the research paper, I agree it's just that, but again WP:RS: "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications." I agree it's not ironclad though, and it would be better to have regular published material for the claims. I'll try to look around. Pataliputra! (talk) 10:58, 22 May 2026 (UTC)
Looks good by your reasoning, however I am convinced fully. I am leaving it as-is. The content relies on Bopearachchi, is almost cited by other sources tok, so it may not act as obstacle, but article also contains thoughts of author, which may not be permanent. In the future, if I will face such issues, I will mention you. Thank you. PhantomVorteX (Talk) 11:15, 22 May 2026 (UTC)

Listing for discussion of Module:Location map/data/Ghaznavid Empire

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Hi, More Map Stuff

Hope you are enjoying your vacation and I apologize if I disturb you; leaving this for whenever you return/wish to attend.

Because I respect your edit history I wished to let you know that I've removed a map you put up on the Wiki commons regarding Tang China, this one, from various wikipedia articles.

I felt I had strong grounds to do so since the 2 sources I repeatedly saw being cited as the source for this map in one case explicity does not support it, and in the other uses language like 'allegedly' which does not sound very supportive.

1)“Of the protectorates shown, only the Anxi protectorate was a real administration governed from Lucha, and with garrison armies. The others were "spheres of influence" with no permanent officials, no fixed administrative centres, and no military forces. The boundaries shown are very approximate and not to be taken as indicating that these areas were in any way controlled from Chan'an. They give a notion more of Gaozong's imperial pretensions.” https://books.google.com/books?id=nSk7EAAAQBAJ&pg=PA119#v=onepage&q&f=false

2) "The only other Central Asian power which might have been able to turn back the rising power of Tibet was the Arab caliphate. However, the early Arab conquests did not extend as far as the new Tibetan imperial borders. The furthest east they had reached by 670 was western Tukháristàn and Sigistan.° These regions had allegedly been brought under Chinese control as a result of Su Ting-fang's conquest of the Western Turks between 657 and 659." pp. 38-39 https://archive.org/details/the-tibetan-empire-in-central-asia-a-history-of-the-struggle-for-great-power-amo_202510/page/38/mode/2up Guile's Theme (talk) 07:47, 30 June 2026 (UTC)

Map of the Tang Empire and Central Asian Protectorates circa 660 CE.[3] It was through the conquest of the Western Turks that the Tang dynasty was able to reach its maximum extent, although for just a few years.[2]
Hi @Guile's Theme:. This is not a map of the "Tang Empire" per se, but rather, as explained in the caption a "Map of the Tang Empire and Central Asian Protectorates circa 660 CE." Tang control in the western areas was indeed quite weak and short-lived, essentially stemming from the Tang control of the Western Turks. The map is derived from , I see no objection to quote in-extenso Hans van de Ven's comment about it. Per Millward, it is fairly standard academic practice to show Tang's greatest expansion in this way ("Cartographers tend to choose this moment of the Tang's greatest extent to depict historical maps of the Tang" hereafter):
"Further Tang expansion followed. The Western Türk Khaghan He-lu (r. 651-7) briefly succeeded in reuniting the Western Türks and retaking the Tarim, as well as lands as far as Persia. When Tang forces defeated the Western Türks at Issyk Kul (in modern Kyrgyzstan) in 657, the Tang emperor installed two rival khans to rule the vast Western Türk empire, and scattered Tang protectorates-general and garrisons throughout it. Tang suzerainty thus extended thinly from Talas and Tashkent in the north, over Samarkand, Bukhara, Kabul and Herat, and as far south-west as Zarang in modern Iran. Tang thus abutted the frontiers of the expanding Arab empire. Cartographers tend to choose this moment of the Tang's greatest extent to depict historical maps of the Tang, but five years later, by 662, the western Central Asian regions nominally under Tang protectorates and prefectures were in rebellion, and after only a few years the Western Türks succeeded in overthrowing their puppet khans and restoring their independence throughout their former territories. Although the Tang would regain its sway over western Türk tribes on occasion thereafter and Tang maintained a Zungharian foothold in Beiting (Beshbaliq, north of Jimsar in the vicinity of modern Urumchi), direct Tang influence beyond the Pamirs was momentary." in Millward, James A. (2007). Eurasian Crossroads: A History of Xinjiang. Columbia University Press. p. 33. ISBN 978-0-231-13924-3.
Pataliputra! (talk) 09:03, 30 June 2026 (UTC)
Hans van de Ven's comment explicity states that these protectorates were never 'real' and the borders he shows not meant to indicate any control at all, but 'pretensions' of the Chinese emperor, and that there was never any officials, adminstration, or garrisons in the claimed protectorates beyond Anxi. Meaning there is essentially no actual control at all and the writings by the most authoritative secondary sources on the time and place only seem to mention it in passing at best without actual support for the claims.
While I understand the practice of showing snap-shots of empire at the maximium extent I'd argue that should still require a certain amount of proof beyond a claim that does not seem widely supported and has little in the way of actual proof, or logic in my opinion given the lack of any realistic control, presence(garrisons), or adminstrative oversight behind it.
In light of this I was actually thinking at length about a comparison that has often troubled me, the Roman Empire article map that includes Trajan's 1 year conquest of Mespotamia. I often think that should at least be in a lighter red like the client states. But I ultimately I see the issue with the Tang Map to be a degree more severe. Namely in that Trajan's direct conquest, control, formal annexation, coins minted, even his own presence, and that of Roman soldiers as far as the Gulf port of Charax cannot be contested and has indisputable evidence.
Compare that to this where the authoritative secondary sources don't really support it in their writings and there is no such similar evidence of actual Tang presence or occupation of any of the claimed protectorates beyond Anxi much less as far as Herat...
The problem with James Millward is that he is citing more authoritative authors than himself for that claim, namely one of the 2 sources I have above, Christoper I. Beckwith, pp. 38-39, The Tibetan Empire in Central Asia: A History of the Struggle for Great Power among Tibetans, Turks, Arabs, and Chinese during the Early Middle Ages, which only mentions it in passing in a non-supporting tone using the term 'allegedy' to describe the claims. IE;
"The only other Central Asian power which might have been able to turn back the rising power of Tibet was the Arab caliphate. However, the early Arab conquests did not extend as far as the new Tibetan imperial borders. The furthest east they had reached by 670 was western Tukháristàn and Sigistan.° These regions had allegedly been brought under Chinese control as a result of Su Ting-fang's conquest of the Western Turks between 657 and 659." pp. 38-39 https://archive.org/details/the-tibetan-empire-in-central-asia-a-history-of-the-struggle-for-great-power-amo_202510/page/38/mode/2up
And he says nothing more on it as the primary focus of his work there is the Tibetan Empire. Guile's Theme (talk) 09:30, 30 June 2026 (UTC)
I am not sure about Christopher I. Beckwith being so authoritative: he is a philologist, not a historian I think. He is also quite fringe in many of his positions ("Greek Buddha"...). Per Millward, a historian, "the Tang emperor installed two rival khans to rule the vast Western Türk empire" . This seems rather well established, hence the suzerainty, and that explains why the Chinese claimed to have protectorates. Physical presence is admittedly less well documented. But if I remember well, various travelers mention Chinese garrisons in the area, such as Hyech'o mentioning Chinese garrisons as far south as Gilgit, and the presence of Chinese Buddhist monks and monasteries in Central Asia is rather well attested (Verardi, Giovanni; Paparatti, Elio (2005). "From Early to Late Tapa Sardār: A Tentative Chronology". East and West. 55 (1/4): 433. ISSN 0012-8376. JSTOR 29757657.). Anyway, the fact that this map of the farthest reach of the Tang is routinely used by academia ("Cartographers tend to choose this moment of the Tang's greatest extent to depict historical maps of the Tang"), backed-up by detailed descriptions such as that of Millward above, is quite sufficient justification to use it on Wikipedia, with the appropriate caveats.
The map also appears in detail in:
among others...
Pataliputra! (talk) 11:35, 30 June 2026 (UTC)
Beckwith is a philologist, historian, linguistics expert, and is very widely cited; likely among the top 6 or 7 names in early central asian history and he is influential for work on Tibet during this era. He is cited heavily in wiki articles such as Protectorate General to Pacify the West and consistently cited quite often in many wiki articles surrounding this topic/time/place.
Others big contemporary names during the time and place in question I'd say inlcude Denis Sinor, Nicole Di Cosmo, Peter B Golden, Michal Biran, and de La Vaissier. None of whom I know that really seem to support the claimed protectorates beyond Anxi.
Another part from Beckwith, same source as before, concerning the revolt of the 2 tribes of the puppet Khans; "This was followed by a major uprising of related tribes of the "Nine-surnamed" T'ieh-le,*?? including the Tongra, P’u-ku, Ssu-chieh, and Telengit, in the Tien Shan area. In the winter of 661, three T'ang armies were organized to attack the rebels" p. 28
"In the following spring, the forces of Cheng Jen-t’ai and Hsieh Jen-kuei*? defeated the Turks somewhere in the Tien Shan. When the Chinese armies approached the hiding places of the Ssu-chieh, Telengit, and other tribes in the armies were organized to attack the rebels., these tribesmen all came out to surrender.” p.29
The issue is that there does not appear to much record of a Chinese army going beyond very far byeond the Tien Shan mountains around the time, ie 660, when these protectorates are supposed to have beegn created. Nor any center of chinese adminstration beyond Kashgar and Kucha. Even if the Chinese did install 2 rival khans, it doesn't say where these Khans were located or what their actual territory was. The Western Turkic Khanate appears to have fragmented very heavily and essenitally doesn't exist by 700 AD as in maps like ttps://www.worldhistorymaps.info/medieval/700-ad/
In regards to Gilgit, that is still very far from Kabul, Bukhara, much less Herat and Zarang/Zaranj among other territories claimed by the protectorates beyond Anxi in the contested map.
Anyway, the fact that this map of the farthest reach of the Tang is routinely used by academia backed-up by detailed descriptions such as that of Millward above, is quite sufficient justification to use it on Wikipedia, with the appropriate caveats
I'd point out this map was the infobox map for the Tang Dynasty from 2008 to May 2023 and likely represents the majority/mainstream view even if some sources do present the alternative maximalist map described by Hans van de Ven' as never 'real' and the borders he shows not meant to indicate any control at all, but 'pretensions' of the Chinese emperor.(yet somehow he was cited in support of such a map?) Guile's Theme (talk) 12:46, 30 June 2026 (UTC)
I am one of the primary contributor for the protectorate articles, including Protectorate General to Pacify the West (southern Xinjiang), Beiting Protectorate (northwestern Xinjiang), Protectorate General to Pacify the North (inner Mongolia) Protectorate General to Pacify the East (Liaodong, parts of northern Korea), and Annan (Tang protectorate) (northern Vietnam). As far as I know, all of them had Tang military garrisons stationed in their area, although the area reached by Tang armies is definitely larger. One example of this is Gilgit (known in Chinese as Lesser Bolü), which was situated southwest of the Anxi Protectorate and is often mentioned as a target that the Tang dynasty and the Tibetan Empire fought over in 656, 710, 722, 737, 747. It would not be surprising if Tang forces were left to defend the area after having retaken it, ostensibly for the local ruler. Many of the protectorates shown further west of the Anxi Protectorate have less evidence if any of direct control by the Tang. I have no opinion on whether or not these are shown on maps of the Tang dynasty. If the choice is made that only areas with direct control via military garrisons are shown as part of the Tang dynasty, then imo this map shows a more appropriate reflection of that.
However this map is missing the brief occupations of northern Korea (668-670, 675). Xiong 2008 p. 41 in Protectorate General to Pacify the North also gives the seat of the protectorate as somewhere near Tsetserleg (city) deep in Mongolia, but that was but one of three seats in 687. Otherwise the seats of the northern protectorate are all around the bank of the Yellow River in Inner Mongolia. Occupation of these areas may be considered too brief to be included.
All these areas were frontier regions and in a constant state of flux with each protectorate lasting roughly 50-100 years each with the exception of Annan. Qiushufang (talk) 12:31, 30 June 2026 (UTC)
The map in van de Ven's Warfare in Chinese History is almost identical to the map in the Cambridge History of China Vol 3, and almost certainly adapted from the latter. In the Cambridge History of China, however, it was explicitly stated that the Tang controlled these regions, although only briefly:
The home territory of the Western Turks, in the region of the Ili valley and the Issyk-Kul, was put under the control of two Chinese protectorates-general (tu-hu fu) whose territories coincided roughly with the previous eastern and western divisions of the Western Turkish empire. Other foreign people previously under the suzerainty of the Western Turks in western Sinkiang, Russian Turkestan and the valley of the Oxus, were also placed under formal Chinese control in 659 and 661. The T'ang empire then stretched from the China Sea all the way to the borders of Persia, and part of the new territory under Chinese control was named the 'Persian' government-general (Po-ssu tu-tu fu). (p. 280)
Esiymbro (talk) 19:34, 30 June 2026 (UTC)
I understand it is presented in a single source with the map as true but the majority of major authors and names on the place & period do no appear to support this claim; namely none of Chistroper Beckwith, Denis Sinor, Nicole Di Cosmo, Peter B Golden, Michal Biran, and de La Vaissier. None of whom I know that really seem to support the claimed protectorates beyond Anxi. And in the case of Hans van de Ven he explicity discredits it saying they were never real but mere 'pretensions'.
Thus this map would appear to constitute a minority view with no actual physical proof beyond the claim in Tang court histories and thus is would be improper to place it as the article map for the Tang Dynasty which should be resevered for a more widley accepted or majority view/mainstream map. It also generally fails to be NPOV to take the most maximalist claims in a contested subject.
I also went back and looked at the talk page discussion when the map was changed from what it had been for over 15 years from 2008 to May of 2023, ie here, and I simply do no believe that disucssion regarding the change to a long standing majority view map incumbetnt on Wikipedia of over 15 years was put under the correct scrutiny and rigor when it was originally changed 3 years ago; it seems to have been accepeted on the basis that the map appeared in a source without any notion of what the weight of sources supported in terms of an actual map with a cited source that also contains the map actively saying the protectorates beyond Anxi were not 'real' with no practical form of control, adminstration, or oversight, ie aspects of the source being used to justify the map were being use selectively or ignored to arguably misporatray what the author was actually saying in the case of Hans van de Ven. Guile's Theme (talk) 20:06, 30 June 2026 (UTC)
Could you quote the authors you listed and what exactly did they say against the protectorates beyond Anxi? The Cambridge History is generally one of the most authoritative sources on Chinese history, and I would be very surprised if it indeed represents the most maximalist claim.
Another source, Son of Heaven and Heavenly Qaghan, p.196, gives the following on the western protectorates:
Between 658 and 661, over a hundred identifiable area commands and prefectures were set up. The vast area under this Tang administration covered Central Asia, reaching as far as the borders of Persia. ... The Protectorates of Kunling and Mengchi were established to supervise the Western Turks. Gazong appointed as their Protectors-general two formerly rival Turkish leaders, Ashina Mishe and Ashina Buzhen, both of whom had submitted to Tang earlier, during the reign of Taizong. Both were entrusted, along with a Chinese minister, with the power to bestow Chinese official titles on the tribal chieftains in the protectorates.
in direct contradiction to the "imperial pretensions" claim.
Esiymbro (talk) 20:29, 30 June 2026 (UTC)
Answer and discussion moved to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tang_dynasty#More_Map_Stuff, so we do not keep blowing up Patali's talk page while he is on vacation and so the discussion can be archived in the correct location, thank you. Guile's Theme (talk) 22:38, 30 June 2026 (UTC)
I am also not sure if Beckwith can be considered authoritative... He is, as far as I know, known for fringe claims such as the Aryan-Chinese connection. Esiymbro (talk) 20:36, 30 June 2026 (UTC)
Beckwith is authoritative de facto in the context of the Protectorate General to Pacify the West as he is in fact one of the most cited sources currently on that page.
I'd also point out his fringe or controverial stances on other topics should not change the fact he is considered very influential and authoritative on the topic of Tibetan history right around this time period. Guile's Theme (talk) 22:10, 30 June 2026 (UTC)

References

  1. Ven, Hans van de (26 July 2021). Warfare in Chinese History. BRILL. p. 119. ISBN 978-90-04-48294-4.
  2. Millward 2007, p. 33.
  3. Ven, Hans van de (26 July 2021). Warfare in Chinese History. BRILL. p. 119. ISBN 978-90-04-48294-4.